A Pointless Reminder
This is a blog. This is no newspaper. This site does not pretend to know the truth. And OMG it’s wrong so often. This site was born with the aim of sharing information, encouraging debate and enhancing dialog on Thai matters. This site does not know more than anyone else nor does it pretend to know better. Reading not only anti-yellow and pro-red stuff lately? Well hopefully so.
It’s all an opinion. This site is not written by martyrs and if you’re looking for ideological reactionary stuff you may find it in here or not. If you’re afraid Thai politics are a clear-cut game, if you want to cheer one party and denounce the other, then good night and please apply for the Nobel Prize in Physics as you just inverted basic laws of not only Thai nature.
This site may also criticize the truthful and praise the dishonest. This site may surprise and offend and offers left and right and center and way out-of-line news sources in its News Feed. Because this site trusts the reader is old enough to read and judge content. But guess what, this site is not unbiased. Red may look promising. Depending on the contextual light it looks unnatural the very next second.
I have to defend the reds just because of what again?They have a less than credible prime minister in waiting with more issues than only two difficult sons. And a Khun Jaran publicly defending the misery of a civil war. It’s time for Thailand to move on, but the situation is not that dire to call for a revolution. Look around. Be honest to yourself. People upcountry don’t have a harsher life than before under Thaksin. And I’m not going to bleed for anyone’s hero or demagogue for that. Thais being their own worst enemy, there’s only so much you as a foreigner can do.
Yes, his ouster was wrong. That doesn’t legitimate his abuses. Just don’t fool yourself. The current Thai resistance is much more about Thaksin than the instrumentalized poor. I share his vision, but not his means to an end. And you seriously think middle class life in Bangkok is sugar and honey? Bangkok is Isaan in a way.
Today’s main political force is envy. Or as a blogger says:
“Time for street revolutions have passed.”
What this site doesn’t want to be is to be arrogant. If you can live with an open mind, you’re most welcome. If you always know what you want to read before you read it, if you know exactly what you want to hear and if you’re absolutely sure what is right and what is wrong, then, well then this is a dreadful place for you. And no, bloggers are no machines and I’m no chronicler on alert 24/7. The blog’s a child of love and hate. And there’s the life. Yes, there are more important things to do sometimes.
Views expressed in here do not necessarily reflect the views of a majority or minority. If you’re running low on tolerance and can’t handle a maverick take please block this site in your browser for your own good. Your attacks are most welcome, as long as they’re not predictable. Good if you can stand the cold and the heat. And no, this site doesn’t make big money. With some luck it pays for the beer. Wanna swap?
Reproduced the above article in one forum without permission.
Dan, the one thing this blog and you never fail to do is make people think. It’s always more interesting hearing all sides of the story and I think you have accomplished that well here.
There is definitely no black and white when it comes to Thai politics or just about anything else Thai but the gray matter you make spark definitely helps bring new perspective to the insanity.
Thailand blogging is definitely a labor of love … you won’t get rich doing it but as you said, it usually pays for the beer.
I love reading this site, keep it up.
Thailand went from the Japan league to the South Korean and Taiwan league, to the Singapore and Malaysian league, and currently to the Vietnam league. As a foreigner in Thailand, sure I am into freezing Thailand in an ancient time capsule. Revert it to Laos or Bhutan. Like walking around seeing all the ignorance around while at night becoming an enlightened global citizen through the internet – is just great for the ego. So let’s start by hoping for another military dictatorship to take Thailand into the Burma model first.
There are people who don’t believe in violent change Terry. The yellow campaign was a violent change. It brings no good. Just because the yellows could do it the reds can?
BangkokDan
Dan: What makes you think the violence will come from the reds?
I’ve heard that many upcountry reds are genuinely afraid that they are going to be met with violence in BKK , but are still prepared to make the journey, as for them a military coup, then a judicial coup and associated backroom deals, combined with the ever present double standards, are just too much to ignore.
I’m not saying Hobby violence will come from the reds, but they’re opening the door for violence
They all claim their acts are peaceful, how often did we hear it from the yellow camp in the past. But there’s the bait for the logical next step. Or it’s all intentional war mongering.
Still, accusing one party of something you’re willing to do yourself, that’s a classic double standard itself.
Nobody refutes the injustices suffered by elected majority, and they’re widely documented on this site. But as said in my comment above: violent change – as the yellow campaign – brings no good. There have to be and there are other means. Patience is a start.
Reds show us a better way. Not only your credibility as a true alternative is at stake here.
So let’s see who will be outsmarted, the government or the reds.
Reading through forums though seeing how many foreigners cheer up the reds reminds me on a remote conflict aka a computer game. Another pseudo-elitist stance. Let the Thais fight it out, hey it’s their problem. We’re just bystanders, aren’t we.
BangkokDan
Agree about the remote conflict aspect, but I don’t see near as many farang cheering the reds as I see defenders of the status quo (with plenty of encouragement to have the upstart reds crushed once and for all) – we must visit different forums, but I did not think there were that many out there?
Instead of ramping up the fear, Abhisit needs to be reminded of the people’s right to protest – something he was once very happy to defend.
Dan, definitely agree with your last para. It’s easy to talk up revolution when you have a passport in a drawer. Reminds me of Naipaul’s comments about the foreigners who got involved in the Michael X stuff in Trinidad:
Dan I am upcountry at the moment on vacation and so only have limited access to the news via my phone.
You make a lot of sense with what you say here.
But from what I can see, this matter is right out of hand.
Hobby should understand the misinformation the reds have been putting out is even wider of the mark than what many think the government is doing.
We were in Burma today. I think all Thais should see the markets just across the border to understand how much better off they are. And if this gets out of hand that could be their fate – no matter who wins this battle between groups of selfish people.
The reds are fully justified to be angry with this usurper government and the double standards they apply to their friends the yellows. Abhisit could have offered a genuine reconciliation but didn’t, perhaps the army influence?
Regardless it seems like they want a red violent uprising, whether via the reds or provocateurs, can’t see any innocent parties here, just all wanting a winner take all outcome. In the end though we are all just the audience to how this show will end.
The idea that this demonstration will lead inevitably to public disorder has gained a lot of traction in the media. It’s obvious that authoritarian elements of the government and among its supporters have much to gain from fermenting violence. It’s obvious that some of the red leaders are quite bellicose in their statements and may seek to provoke a confrontation.
All that said, I would support the right of the reds to demonstrate this weekend. It’s their right to peacefully protest in spite of the risk. Unless you want to live in China, the right of these people to peacefully demonstrate has to be supported.
If there is a violent government crackdown and we do end up living in a Chinese style Thailand I will exercise my option to leave. The fact that I have that option doesn’t influence my view that the reds have a right to protest.
I don’t think anybody has said that the Reds have no right to protest. They are certainly allowed to protest peacefully. Having said that the Bangkokians also have the right to be prepared to protect their livelihood and their properties. Bangkok people still vividly remember “how peaceful these red mobs staged their protest last year.” If the worst come to the worst people who dwell in the city will resort to arms to protect their well-being as there has been a widespread rumor that the mob – or other parties – will cause chaos and damage in the city. But people should not buy into that idea too much. Yet, caution is still needed in this kind of situation. Eveything just seems to be getting better and better these days, doesn’t it?
By the way, Khun Dan if you don’t mind my saying so, I think you take yourself and what other people say on this blog a bit too seriously. Even my dear Murakami does not do so. As one of my favourite philosophical phrases says: “What you do or say might not please anyone else, but it pleases yourself.”
(BD: Thanks for the heads-up, you’re not the first one politely complaining, promise betterment …)
Actually I would have thought that the barrage of propaganda about the red menace to Bangkok is designed to imply that they do not have the right to protest because they will disrupt the lives of the gilded middle class!
You claim to tell Dan not to take this too seriously. But only after you have stoked up the panic in your previous paragraph! According to you there is “rumor” of a “mob” that “will cause chaos and damage to the city” and perhaps the middle classes will “resort to arms to protect their well being”? You are commenting on the wrong site if you think people won’t notice this kind of spinning.
I learned recently that the Chinese government are now paying people to comment on blogs and in political fora on behalf of the government. Are we seeing something similar developing here in Thailand or has this site become interesting to The Nation readers all of a sudden? I don’t normally rise to this kind of provocation but clearly the whole point of campaign to label the red demonstration and provocative and destabilizing is to deny legitimacy to their right to protest. That truly is an outrageous idea.
Nothing against a good old protest Jaded, but that’s not what’s about to happen. A protest is against something. This Thaksin-manifestation is also against the local people – how many Bangkokians will join the “protest”? Oh dear don’t call me a yellow … But being at it, yellow campaign anyone? Can’t see major differences in strategy and tactics. But the yellows enjoyed the support of the local population, allowing them to go on and go on.
The reds?
We’ll soon know how it plays out. A nuisance of three days is perfectly acceptable, legitimate and in part helpful to bring an important message across. Three days? I only see losers.
You were a pessimist in many of your past comments. So suddenly there’s optimism in the pessimism?
BangkokDan
Seeing as what happened last April, you cannot blame the city people for feeling some paranoia about the upcoming event this weekend can you? Whether the rumor is propaganda or not, they have the right to be vigilant and well prepared. I am just reporting what many city-dwellers have been discussing and worrying about. You cannot deny the fact that the assembly this weekend will disrupt people’s lives, surely? Maybe I know more about what’s going on than you do! What do you want me to say? It is true that Bangkokians have been thinking of retaliating if the reds threaten to burn down their properties. I hope the reds protest peacefully and don’t cause havoc again. You can accuse me of spinning as much as you like; but it is not going to make any difference about what I have been hearing for the past few days, unless you are better-versed in reading Thai language than me. I don’t like this ongoing tension either; if things do get out of hand, it will affect me too since I will be in Thailand this weekend. By the way, I have been reading Khun Dan’s blog long before Absolutely Bangkok became popular amongst foreigners. The fact that I don’t normally comment here does not mean I don’t read it. Most of the time I thoroughly enjoy reading foreigners’ perspective on Thailand. Consequently, your last paragraph is ridiculously speculative and laughable.
Being upcountry this week I have been able to observe and hear the deciet and lies being thrust at people via RedTV and other sources. This despicable manipulation of very genuine Thai people who only want the best for Thailand.
If you believe they have been used by one lot of “elites” for a long time that is nothing compared to this.
I see this as one of those classic historical turning points which might amount to nothing or something depending obviously on events. It’s not a question of whether or not I agree with the reds, the yellows, the blues, the pinks or any other colour co-ordinated political grouping that might make an appearance. I am not even sure that I have a strong opinion on the merits of their cause. The point is that they do and they have as much right to express it as anyone else, particularly if they know the risk they are taking.
There is a parallel to what is happening now in the not to distant history of my own country. The Civil Rights Movement in early 70s Northern Ireland propelled itself into Bloody Sunday.
On the evidence of previous history I remain pessimistic about what might happen this weekend. No observer could be blind to the risk that these people are taking. However I don’t think they are unaware of the dangers either. If they freely choose to risk their lives in Bangkok this weekend then, like Irish civll rights marchers, the events of the day may have dreadful and, on the part of the protesters, quite unintended consequences. But, no more than I would say that the people who marched in Derry/Londonderry on Bloody Sunday were wrong or irresponsible do so, I cannot in conscience suggest that the reds should be any more limited in their actions than the yellows.
And being more than a little familiar with the history of my own country I can recognize that the many of the arguments that were leveled against the civil disruption caused by the marchers then are very close to those being used to criticize and/or dissuade the reds now. What judgement does history pass on those marchers whose repression in many ways precipitated a decades long sectarian civil war? What role did Bloody Sunday play in inspiring recruits to the Provisional IRA and determining the course of subsequent events? Did their leaders understand the true nature of the risk that they were taking and what it might lead to? Is my historical analogy completely contrived and miscast? Should I be looking to examples of similar events in Thailand? I don’t really know.
There is however one thing that I do know. If these people want to be heard, and maybe even are brave enough to knowingly risk their lives for a cause, however etiolated by Thaksin’s influence, they deserve to be respected. My pessimistic side does not expect that that parity of esteem to both reds and yellows is a likely outcome though. I think you are right Dan and there will have to be losers in this political game. I still don’t think anyone has the right to tell them to give up though.
Hang on a minute – I can’t let all of these allusions to “last April” go by without mentioning that it’s never been proven clearly by objective observers if the reds started the violence, right? Newin’s thugs the blues provoked the reds in Pattaya, and then in Bangkok, there was a lot of evidence that yellows costumed in red shirts and also possibly military provocateurs stirred up violence again, which finally drew in other reds. That’s how it seemed to play out at the time, but it seems that we’ve been slowly brainwashed by the MSM since then that the reds, on their own and premeditated, staged “riots.” But it’s all rather murky how it stared. Hence, I’m less scared of the reds demonstrating en masse this time; I’m more scared of the blues returning or yellows again donning fake red shirts and being violent in order to create chaos and make the reds look bad. If left to demonstrate without interference, the reds would probably remain peaceful.
As usual Jaded tells it like it is. He correctly says people have a right to protest. What I detect is that rank and file red shirts are being used by the leaders.
Surprised no one has noticed that the baby elephant just born in Sydney was thought to be dead in the womb just before Prime Minister Abhisit’s proposed visit. Just after the visit was cancelled the baby elephant was born. What does that indicate if you are superstitious in Thailand?
So, where is the evidence? Everything you said is simply an assumption. Many viewers from around the world saw the events playing out last year via the international media and it was clearly not a pretty sight unless your TV could not pick up BBC, CNN, Al Jazeera etc when the havoc was taking place. Their gathering ruined people’s livelihood last year but from what I have been hearing, the city dwellers are well prepared to protect their neighborhood this time. No one likes people who like to cause trouble be they reds, yellows, blues or any other color. Of course everyone has the right to stage their dissatisfaction PEACEFULLY and I am not against that either.
@Oneditorial, my assumption was based on photographer Nick Nostitz’s eyewitness account of March/April 2009 red shirt activity, which he posted about extensively over at the New Mandala website:
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/04/20/the-crushing-of-the-red-shirts/
So that’s where I gleaned the impression of probable third-agent provocateurs. From Nostitz’s very detailed post, the following quote stands out as relevant to the point in question – namely, if the red shirts were inherently a violent, frothing mob acting in a premeditated way, or if the majority of red shirts strove for peacefeul protest whilst a minority fell prey to their anger, probably provoked by anti-UDD saboteurs:
Nostitz wrote:
So, you are admitting that it was just your assumption based on this insufficient evidence and you are selectively ignoring what other foreign journalists reported at that time? How can you be certain who was really involved in the incident? From the color of the shirts they were wearing? How do you explain the incident last year when it was clearly the reds who attacked occupied vehicles in front of the interior ministry? The mob might not be inherently violent but the havoc that happened last year is a fact that cannot be argued. You and that guy can deny it as much as you like but if this weekend violence should occur, the reds are likely to be universally condemned by the people who live there.
First off, I live “there.” In fact, I live about five minutes’ walk from PM Abhisit’s house and drive past it (and the cops “guarding” his house but actually usually eating noodles or buying lottery tickets/gathering their tea money from passing vendors) at least twice a day.
Second, I wasn’t “admitting” anything; rather, I was elaborating on what I’d read last year that gave me the impression that the source of April 2009′s violence wasn’t as obvious, and hence not all the Reds’ fault, as some people now seem to believe. Have you read Nostitz’s exhaustive account? It wasn’t conjecture; this respected photojournalist was there, he recorded what happened with his camera and with notes, and he talked with countless witnesses and participants. (He speaks Thai.) How can you dismiss Nostitz’s account as “insufficient evidence”?
You wrote that I’m “selectively ignoring what other foreign journalists reported at the time.” As you’ve dismissed Nostitz’s words and photos, perhaps you’re also selectively ignoring certain reports. Well, I’ve given you Nostitz’s account as the source of information from which I developed an opinion. Can you please furnish aB readers with a link to your source of information that makes you so sure April 2009 happened differently? I will take time to read it if you post a link.
But you’re right, Oneditorial, I can’t be certain of anything, because I myself didn’t witness the incidents in question, and I don’t recall what other foreign and Thai journalists wrote at the time about it. Also, I can’t explain the car attack in front of the interior ministry (I’d forgotten about that until you mentioned it) — true, that wasn’t exactly peaceful behavior.
Thank you for acknowledging that the reds “might not be inherently violent,” and I agree that last year’s havoc “is a fact that cannot be argued” – however, the source of much of the havoc is. I also agree with your that “if this weekend violence should occur, the Reds are likely to be universally condemned” – which is what the ammart network wants, so I’m nervous that even if the reds manage, this time, to maintain peace whilst crowding tens of thousands of people into an inhospitable environment, violence might break out even if not by the reds. That infamous “third hand,” a la Newin’s blue shirts (but of course cleverly disguised in red shirts), might stir up trouble by either provoking violence or pretending to do crazy things like storming Siriraj Hospital. Let’s hope not …
Robin, I think you see what you want to see.
Nick does a great job with his photojournalism and tries to be fair, with his pieces.
But, last April was a time of hightened tensions, which he was caught up in, because of the “service” he was rendering and going where many others were not prepared to. Therefore, I can understand his portrayal, as he was there – not watching from the sidelines on TV, as others seemed to do.
Having said this, although he was not fabricating what he saw, or believed he saw, he was emotionally involved in the events.
And if you read the text closely, a lot of these events took place in the dark – meaning his opinions were made under stress and might not be 100% accurate. But, in the “wider” picture, he certainly made a valuable contribution to coverage of the events.
Recently, he has seemed to confine himself, to written commentary on blogs, such as this one, New Mandala and Bangkok Pundit.
I do hope he is not “missing in action” and is able to make his usually high standard reports about this weekend.
GeGee, I appreciate the even-handed tone in your response to my most recent comment. You made good points. Seeing what we want to see is human nature, so people with sympathy for the Reds, we’re going to cling to “evidence” that they do no wrong, and people with Yellow sympathies will cling to “evidence” that they do no wrong, while in fact, both sides have elements of truth and plenty of mistakes. It’s hard for me to stay objective and keep emotion out of this subject. It also doesn’t help that there is so much MSM propaganda out there – it makes it even more difficult to find objective truths from amongst all of the distortion, omissions, and deceit. Sometimes it seems the only way to know what’s REALLY going on is actually attending the protest, but … I’m not that brave or foolhardy! And as you pointed out, even being there, and “emotionally involved in the events,” doesn’t guarantee discovering the full truth either.
Thanks Robin, for you response, too.
I have just sepnt the week up around Chiang Rai, Chaing Mai with my family (mix of OZ & Thai) and staying with some red supporters.
I think my friends are like so many red supporters.
They only want a better Thailand. They truly love this place (and I say, for good reason) – something which should not be forgotten.
You talk about “MSM” propaganda. If you haven’t already, you should see RedTV and hear the “dog whistle” lies and rumors the supporters (innocently) spread about certain individuals and the power structure of Thailand.
I know rumor and inuendo, often take the place of facts, but it would seem by the simple style of “on song” cliches spreading, they are planted in much the same way, as some blogs and tweeters are “emdedded” in this MSM Propaganda war.
I have come back even more convinced,the problem with the red shirts is not the people – it’s the leaders.
I cannot help but feel they are taking advantage of the inherant good nature in so many Thai people, in order to feather their own nests.
If along the way, they happen to help a few rise above the pack – so be it. But, when you see how they are doing this, their aim and the genuine aim of the supporters on coincide by accident, more than design.
In that, I guess they have been “well tutored” by the “Man in Dubai”??
Dan,
I see you have quite a lively discussion here, huh?
Honestly speaking, I have got tired and bored of Thai politics quite some time ago, and especially of arguing with all those who continue claim “unique/Thainess” stuff (usually they are either PAD, or yellow Thai MSM; by the way the term “yellow press” emerged more than 100 years before PAD even came to existence and thus has nothing to do with PAD itself, although funnily Thai MSM somehow enabled this hilarious coincidence – that local Thai MSM are YELLOW in both senses: that is is staunch supporter of PAD as well as shameless spinner of low grade sensationalistic copy-cat-from-official-press-releases-and-never-bother-to-check-FACTS “reports”).
So, I would not go into trying to defend or bash any group here (although I do not hide my position: I strongly dislike PADshists, to put it mildly). Because after all all the “color-coded revolutions” of last few decades in the world rather indicate certain pattern and design: to distract the sheeple into some artificial confrontations and create illusory appearance of “We the People” power, as if it really matters to all those who actually pull the strings (banksters, strongmen, elite, etc.). Therefore to let oneself get carried away by all this phantasmagoria of elaborate show – now I consider as allowing oneself get blinded or at least somewhat have one’s vision narrowed down with precise purpose of NOT seeing the whole picture.
What doesn’t stop to surprise me though is: how eager and never tired Thai media are at continuing their silly brainwashing attempts in an English-speaking blogosphere and web boards!
Sure, I have no slightest doubt that Thai MSM have their own bots and perhaps even hired participants who constantly scan all the web for anything which doesn’t fit their own yellow version.
Sure, Thai government, and especially military, as well as other concerned groups, have their own such fellas too – damn, PAD alone is worth mentioning, being quite skilled in it!
(As I know Israel’s secret service has first started using hired “bots” and “trolls” in internet info-wars.)
But what is funny: all such guys are TOO obvious and too blatant, not even bothering to pretend being subtle.
And even though nowadays I prefer to avoid participating in all such “debates,” sometimes I just can’t help it but notice how stupidly blatant and silly all such efforts are!
I mean: if one really wants to at least confuse a bit (what to speak – convince) some foreigners who DO FACTS CHECKING (unlike Thai media) – then perhaps they supposed to try doing a better job than simply employ demagoguery, fallacies and all too obvious dirty trick …
No?
P.S.: On the red’s rally my only comment would be: I hope they have learned their lessons from last Songkran and this time are much better prepared in terms of FACTS gathering, keeping and broadcasting – one of the main reason, in my opinion, why they have lost last time! They should have at very least digital cameras and better yet – video cameras, mobile broadcasting units, English-speaking/reading/writing their OWN people who have at least basic skills at blogging, or better yet – at dealing with international media!
Otherwise all their efforts are useless. especially taking into consideration the giant “media war” unleashed by government last year (still ongoing) right after Songkran events.
I see there are already several videos (even posted on this blog) “exposing” reds.
Bravo to The Nation and Thai MSM (as well as whoever else hating reds): as usually they are pretty quick at putting all such stuff on internet. Too quick and too good for reds ever to be able to match them in such a swiftness (not to mention wickedness), what to speak – to better them. Not surprising: after all, urban Bangkokians would always be ahead of some provincial peasants in all such things, even in basic taking photos and uploading them on the net, what to speak – making videos and figuring out how to upload them on youtube!
Hell, “baan nork” will never be able even to AFFORD having such things as digital photo/video cameras, computers, fast internet connection – in fact even a sufficient time to seat in front of computer to learn how to do all such things.
And thus – PAD, and especially establishment (government, army, MSM) will ALWAYS be able to vilify, demonize and “expose” reds. In other words – to be able to WIN the information war, which is much more essential than the numbers of protesters on the streets!
BTW the video of “reds giving money” is too blatant well staged show: I mean, why would they do it as if especially in front of many photo cameras? Also, people “receiving” money are too well-to-do who do not look as some peasants at all, who might be really needing money.
With all the oh so nice adds on TV during Abhisit’s term, many people on Thai forums have already figured out that practically ALL of them are well acted, to the last person.
Then to stage some little clip with “reds giving out money” – is a piece of cake for talented Thai media!
Thus once again I applaud in awe: Bravo!
Can’t wait for more. I have no any doubts that we’ll see more masterpieces of Thai “journalism” (or shall we say – cinematography?)
Sure, it is not at all fake – it is very believable, as much as any good Thai TV ads.
Oh, and for another video I think a better title would be Kwamchantin (Agitator! Provocateur!) instead of Tamruat.
Even the police themselves are being shrewd enough asking the “victim”: “Surely that guy wouldn’t just suddenly attack you unless you’ve said or done something to him first?”
I am sure we’ll see many more masterpieces from yellow media in days to come. After all, hey – they’ve being eagerly awaiting these events so long.