Bangkok’s 9/11

49 Responses to “Bangkok’s 9/11”

1. Andy on May 19th, 2010 10:08 pm

   After being released that the crackdown went relatively well, and unlike previous cases the army did a much more professional job, now this sad destruction by the radicalized mob. Hopefully now finally most of the red supporters will notice what they ultimately created, and step back their rhetoric and action. It is really sad that Thaksin or Giles hate the government so much they don’t desist from literally laying more fire and destroying their home country.

   Guess now the reds finally shown their real face, and it is even uglier than the already bad one the yellows showed two years ago, the quiet majority will not fall into the trap of the radicals in a future election anymore. I’d wish the moderate politicians in Puea Thai will now step forward and support the government, creating something like a government of national unity which then can better deescalate and reconciliate this conflict.

   Quality comment? 2  2

2. tum|bler on May 19th, 2010 11:24 pm

   Will the consequences of Bangkok’s 9/11 be just like those of the real 9/11, meaning: massive increase in military budget, sweeping power for the government to deal with suspected terrorists, detain people without trial, etc etc?

   Peua Thai could be crushed in the next election though that also depends on a lot of other factors.

   Quality comment? 1  0

3. Tweets that mention Bangkok’s 9/11 -- Topsy.com on May 20th, 2010 12:14 am

   [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Jon Fernquest and BKKDan, John Morrill. John Morrill said: The absurd 9/11 comparisons are spreading. RT @BangkokDan: (BLOG) Bangkok’s 9/11 http://bit.ly/cLnetb [...]

   Quality comment? 0  0

4. Steve on May 20th, 2010 3:20 am

   I would love to think that things will now return to normal, however considering the escalation that occurred AFTER the red shirt leaders turned themselves in I am horribly concerned about the next days and weeks, not just in Bangkok, but throughout the kingdom.

   Based on reports coming in the violence is spreading throughout Thailand now even as far as Chiang Mai and Ubon. I hope and pray that the people involved come to their senses soon.

   Quality comment? 1  0

5. Surie on May 20th, 2010 7:04 am

   “(Australia’s) Foreign Minister Stephen Smith says he is pleased the Thai military has shown restraint in dealing with their country’s political crisis.”

   http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/20/2904478.htm?section=world

   Quality comment? 2  0

6. max on May 20th, 2010 10:19 am

   You are a shitty kind of dude. History has judged that.

   Quality comment? 1  1

7. Jandy on May 20th, 2010 11:02 am

   You really don’t get it, do you? This is a fight between thugs, there is no legitimacy in the government and there is no legitimacy in the red shirts. Blaming one and supporting the other only perpetuates the division.

   Unless people start thinking about a 3rd option we will never get out of the vicious circle. Sorry, I read you regularly, but, at the moment, I think your doing a disservice to the people of this country.

   (BD: Thought I mentioned “utter failures on all sides. The government, the reds, the people.”)

   Quality comment? 4  2

8. Surie on May 20th, 2010 11:30 am

   Washington was “deeply concerned that red shirt supporters have engaged in arson, targeting electricity infrastructure and media outlets and have attacked individual journalists,” said State Department spokesman Gordon Duguid.

   “And we condemn such behavior and call on (their) leaders and affiliated opposition politicians to urge their supporters to stop such acts,” he told reporters in Washington.

   However, Duguid praised some actions already taken by the protest leaders.

   “We are encouraged by the actions of the red shirt leaders who have surrendered to law enforcement agencies and support their call to supporters to return home peacefully,” Duguid said.

   Quality comment? 0  0

9. JJ on May 20th, 2010 11:31 am

   Some delusional romantics clearly miss the big picture.

   Don’t think Dan belittles the fight of the reds. A group of radicals took not only the country hostage, but their own people. Look at the Wat Pathum Wanaram drama. Wait until these women and children are home. They will tell you the real story and reds will be ashamed.

   Quality comment? 4  0

10. StanG on May 20th, 2010 11:47 am

    No signs of violence today, so far.

    Burning things is not a viable strategy, even reds know they have lost, they can vent their anger and frustration for some time, but they have lost.

    I believe they realized they have lost weeks ago, BTW. I just wrote a blog about it.

    The country will return to “normal” very fast.

    Quality comment? 0  1

11. Jaded on May 20th, 2010 12:30 pm

    I’d have to say that given the very small number of casualties the army did a reasonable job. Keeping casualties so low was helped perhaps by the surrender of the leaders but the military encountered resistance all day and responded with discipline and restraint. The rapid pullout of the troops that carried out the assault was a very smart move. Soldiers who are forced to risk their lives in frontal assaults are very difficult to restrain afterwards, even when casualties are as low as they were yesterday. The important consequences of this rapid withdrawl was that clashes between armed men on both sides were limited and the army achieved the objectives of the operation at a much lower cost than most observers would have expected. It looks to me like they let the militants get away. With the leadership in custody it was in no one’s interest to back an armed rank and file into a corner. That would have made for a very bloody ending to the situation. Of course that gave the armed and militant element of the red guards the initiative to do as much damage as they could but in my view the torching of buildings is a small price to pay for resolving the situation downtown with a minimum of force.

    Now the burning buildings have everyone worried but it’s hard to see how you could view the mob’s actions, armed and unarmed, as revolutionary. If an organization appears that throws up more leaders, advocates violence and directs the anger then it’s time to start worrying but that point does not seem to have been reached. The targeting is very much about who owns what in Thai society and reflects the continuing power of the feudal mindset determining the situation. That implies to me that there is no revolutionary impulse. Just a bit of revenge.

    But riding the red shirt political tiger in the provinces might be a very different story. I think Giles point in your posted video about the vacuum on the left in Thailand is quite important now. If the hardliners in the government choose repression over conciliation then a new political consciousness might be activated. And instead of a strong belief (that still exists) that fresh elections and constitutional change can resolve the situation, the opposition will begin to focus on other alternatives. Abhisit’s road map is now a vital part of the story that needs to be communicated, and, dare I say it, sold to the people who feel they have no respect. Trials for leaders, summary imprisonment for protesters and maintaining obvious double standards in investigations and court cases will push the opposition towards alternative, possibly even revolutionary consciousness. Of course, the actions of a hardline leadership can turn the north and northeast into a new south and give the Thai army something to spend their enormous budgets on but that’s really the option of Burma not of Thailand.

    What the government does, not a few incendiary groups of leaderless troublemakers, will determine how bad this gets now.

    Quality comment. You agree? 10  0

12. Kal on May 20th, 2010 12:48 pm

    OK, what happened? Last I saw (three, four days ago) didn’t the reds get everything they wanted? Dissolved parliament soon, elections in fall, etc.? How did they manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory here?

    Quality comment? 1  1

13. Vichai N on May 20th, 2010 1:09 pm

    “Just a bit of revenge.”

    - Jaded

    35 buildings gutted and untold damages to other city infrastructure is NOT just a bit. There was malicious intent to gut certain companies – Bangkok Post, Central Group, Channel3, Bangkok Bank et al, and included even The Stock Exchange of Thailand.

    There’s a very vindictive dark force running amok with the need to draw attention in the most ugly fashion. Perhaps that’s the reason it was impossible to get any reconciliation map forward.

    BUT this should NOT deter PM Abhisit. I urge PM Abhisit to act with utmost speed to revive his five-point reconciliation map and announce a new election date, earlier than November 14th if possible.

    Now is the time for solid demonstrable good faith gesture … and not just soothing words.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 6  4

14. Mithran on May 20th, 2010 1:30 pm

    “There will be a hard crackdown against government enemies and you won’t have a clean conscience not defending that.”

    Dan, you mean enemy in the criminal sense, right? Arsonists, people with guns … You can be a enemy of the government without breaking the law (i.e. you can intend to vote against them). If such people are also cracked down on, then we will have problems.

    “Don’t Thai people love their freedom.”

    The more I think about it, the more it seems nobody wants freedom here. What they want is a nak leng who can take away all the bad people by shooting them in the head. As has often been said, PAD could have gained so much international support by complaining about Thaksin’s human rights record. But the 2,000-odd dead in the drug war was as okay with them as it was with everyone else. I’ve had Thai people tell me what a safe place the country was under General Sarit. You could go out and leave your house unlocked.

    No one wants freedom.

    True freedom brings responsibility. Better to have a “nak leng” to take away the bad people.

    And in the coming crackdown perhaps we’ll get one.

    (BD: Thanks for the clarifiers, certainly true, was late last night … If there’d be the crackdown I don’t suggest internet & media would have long been put under severe controls. That’s not the case.)

    Quality comment? 1  0

15. Hobby on May 20th, 2010 5:34 pm

    I’ll add may voice (once again, at last) to Vichai N’s:

    “I urge PM Abhisit to act with utmost speed to revive his five-point reconciliation map and announce a new election date, earlier than November 14th if possible.

    Now is the time for solid demonstrable good faith gesture … and not just soothing words”.

    I’m keeping my hopes in check this time, lest I be disappointed again.

    Quality comment? 2  2

16. HH on May 20th, 2010 6:37 pm

    JJ – The reds will go home and tell their story alright. But won’t be the one that the Thai army told you. If you think the war stories of the protestors are going to calm Isaan down, you are nuts. The violence may have been bad, but your implication that people were not there voluntarily is regurgitated propaganda.

    Kal – Abhisit’s proposal was a scam. If they had left the protest site they would have been arrested and elections would never have happened. It might have been better than the way things turned out – it might be better to be in a military jail for a lesser offense. But get everything they wanted – no way.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 6  4

17. Surie on May 20th, 2010 7:05 pm

    Just to add to Vichai’s criticism to the “just a bit of revenge” comment, the fact is lots of lives were also recklessly put into danger, at the very least, more than 100 employees of Channel 3 station were trapped on the roof of their office as the building became engulfed in fire and eventually had to be airlifted to safety. Moreover, their murderous intent was further evident by the fact that: “The building was attacked by the protesters and when we dispatched a fire truck it was also attacked. Now they have withdrawn so we have sent a fire truck again,” a spokesman for the Bangkok fire department said.

    Quality comment. You agree? 11  0

18. Vichai N on May 20th, 2010 7:38 pm

    Found this article “Thailand: Challenging the ‘heroic revolution’ archetype” by Somtow Sucharitkul who is a composer, author and media personality.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2905056.htm

    His opinion mirrors mine to the letter, thus excerpts:

    “… If the foreign press were in fact able to speak Thai well enough to follow all the reportage here coming from all sides, they would also be including some of the following information in their reports. I want to insist yet again that I am not siding with anyone. The following is just information that people really need before they write their news reports.

    • Thaksin was democratically elected, but became increasingly undemocratic, and the country gradually devolved from a nation where oligarchs skimmed off the top to a kleptocracy of one. During his watch, thousands of people were summarily executed in the South of Thailand and in a bizarre “war on drugs” in which body count was considered a marker of success.

    • The coup that ousted Thaksin was of course completely illegal, but none of the people who carried it out are in the present government.

    • The yellow shirts’ greatest error in moulding its international image was to elevate Thaksin’s corruption as its major bone of contention. Thai governments have always been corrupt. The extent of corruption and the fact that much of it went into only one pocket was shocking to Thais, but the west views all “second-rate countries” as being corrupt. Had they used the human rights violations and muzzling of the press as their key talking points, the “heroic revolution” archetype would have been moulded with opposite protagonists, and CNN and BBC would be telling an opposite story today.

    • The constitution which was approved by a referendum after the coup and which brought back democracy was flawed, but it provided more checks and balances, and made election fraud a truly accountable offense for the first time.

    • The parliamentary process by which the Democrat coalition came to power was the same process by which the Lib Dems and Tories have attained power in Britain. The parliament that voted in this government consists entirely of democratically elected members.

    • No one ever disputed the red shirts’ right to peaceful assembly, and the government went out of its way to accede to their demands.

    • This country already has democracy. Not a perfect one, but the idea of “demanding democracy” is sheer fantasy

    • The yellow shirts did not succeed in getting any of their demands from the government. The last two governments changed because key figures were shown to have committed election fraud. They simply did not take their own constitution seriously enough to follow it.

    • The red TV station has a perfect right to exist, but if foreign journalists actually understood Thai, they would realise that much of its content went far beyond any constitutionally acceptable limits of “protected speech” in a western democracy. Every civilised society limits speech when it actually harms others, whether by inciting hate or by slander. The government may have been wrong to brusquely pull the plug, but was certainly right to cry foul. It should have sought an injunction first. Example: Arisman threatened to destroy mosques, government buildings, and “all institutions you hold sacred” … a clip widely seen on YouTube, without subtitles. Without subtitles, it looks like “liberty, equality, fraternity.”

    • The army hasn’t been shooting women and children … or indeed anyone at all, except in self-defence. Otherwise this would all be over, wouldn’t it? It’s simple for a big army to mow down 5,000 defenceless people.

    • Since the government called the red shirts’ bluff and allowed the deputy P.M. to report to the authorities to hear their accusations, the red leaders have been making ever-more fanciful demands. The idea of UN intervention is patently absurd. When Thaksin killed all those Muslims and alleged drug lords, human rights groups asked the UN to intervene. When the army took over the entire country, some asked the UN to intervene. The UN doesn’t intervene in the internal affairs of sovereign countries except when requested to by the country itself or when the government has completely broken down.

    • Thailand hasn’t had an unbreachable gulf between rich and poor for at least 20 years. These conflicts are about the rise of the middle class, not the war between the aristocrats and the proletariat.

    • Abhisit, with his thoroughly Western and somewhat liberal background, shares the values of the West and is in fact more likely to bring about the social revolution needed by Thailand’s agrarian poor than any previous leader. He is, in fact, pretty red, while Thaksin, in his autocratic style of leadership, is in a way pretty yellow. Simplistic portrayals do not help anyone to understand anything.

    • The only people who do not seem to care about the reds’ actual grievances are their own leaders, who are basically making everyone risk their lives to see if they can get bail.

    • The king has said all that he is constitutionally able to say when he spoke to the supreme court justices and urged them to do their duty. The western press never seem to realise that the Thai monarchy is constitutionally on the European model … not, say, the Saudi model. The king REIGNS … he doesn’t “rule.” This is a democracy. The king is supposed to symbolise all the people, not a special interest group.

    The above are just a few of the elements that needed to be sorted through in order to provide a balanced view of what is happening in this country …”

    Quality comment. You agree? 17  7

19. StanG on May 20th, 2010 7:42 pm

    HH,

    “Reds will go home and tell their story.”

    Tens of thousands of them have gone home weeks ago. I doubt a couple of thousand who stayed till the end will make a big difference. They didn’t see anything anyway, just listened to the speeches and collected rumors.

    The CRES did a good job refuting many of those, BTW, would be a tough sell.

    I bet they’d succumb to relative peace and calm of daily life rather than spark a revolution.

    It’s the hard core guards coupled with local red leaders who are likely to create troubles.

    There are 400,000 thousand registered reds in Udon – how many came out to burn the city hall yesterday? Less than 1%.

    The mass support for the violent (and discredited) red cause is exaggerated.

    OK, slightly more than 1% of Udon reds – 5,000 people according to this source:

    http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/viewtopic.php?p=220789#p220789

    Hot debate. What do you think? 6  5

20. Vichai N on May 21st, 2010 9:02 am

    StanG wrote a good article recently “Who is missing in this chaos?”

    http://siampolitics.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/who-is-missing-in-this-chaos/

    The short of it being their shame/guilt at the violence/devastation brought by the violent red elements on Bangkok. Some will be in denial of course, but for the most part donning a red color would be “conscience-wrestling” moments.

    When they realize who manipulated them to the point of risking their lives for self-seeking ends by the Reds leadership … those red leaders better start running for cover.

    What says you Hobby?

    Hot debate. What do you think? 4  4

21. StanG on May 21st, 2010 11:36 am

    Somtow has his own blog:

    http://www.somtow.org/

    And his general website is here:

    http://www.somtow.com/

    I just realized I need to brush up on his bio myself, particularly his reasons to return to Thailand and his impressions here.

    I strongly suspect it went against the general doom and gloom propagated by some academics here.

    Quality comment? 1  4

22. Roger Ramjet on May 21st, 2010 5:55 pm

    StanG

    During my travels through cyberspace I came across Somtow’s blog and the comments by so-called “farangs” and Thais. There is only one problem with this site, after reading the first 100 replies to one post by Somtow; the English is absolutely correct. Every letter, every phrase and have you noticed it’s linked to the Nation and there was not one dissenting view about the blog, just praise for the author!

    I have read the Bangkok post blog as well (whilst it was open) and there you can find Thailish as well as dissenting views. Not one post in English was totally correct in either spelling or phraseology.

    And when I posted at Somtow’s with a balanced view it was blocked and I was told in no uncertain terms not to post there anymore.

    It’s a bit like your posts all over the net, when people question your posts, you make claims that are never substantiated with fact.

    Roger

    Hot debate. What do you think? 7  5

23. Surie on May 21st, 2010 7:08 pm

    Came across this vdo of a red shirt Brit threatening to burn down and loot Central World not long before it happened.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_qz6oomb8

    There’s also an interview of him with the Sun, some interesting tidbits:

    “I did not do any looting. I did not set fire to anything, but those who did are my brothers. I am not worthy of them.”

    “The attack on Channel 3 was organized. I saw the leaders giving directions. The red shirts hated Channel 3. There was a BMW showroom next door which was totally untouched.”

    “My friends are professionals. Some of them are ex-police and ex-army. They know exactly what they are doing … The war is over for the time being. Now everybody is looking for red shirts. But in two months time things will start up again. The attacks will begin.”

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2982225/The-Brit-thug-of-bloody-Bangkok.html

    Quality comment. You agree? 8  0

24. sehdaeng on May 21st, 2010 7:08 pm

    Who started and open this Pandora’s box??? Is it the PAD? Yellow shirts?? OK, enough of the blame game. Though Thaksin might be corrupt, Abhisit is incompetent as well. In any society, there surely is polar extreme and of course, corrupt or charismatic leaders would exploit the peoples feeling. It doesn’t matter the elites exploit them, yes they would definitely exploit given the opportunity … but even simple farm people want to see their choices respected. You can call it whatever, fight for democracy, communist, capitalist, monarchy, terrorist etc. … learn to give and take, share the power and give the common, lowly simple folk chance to see their grievances attended. However, men by all nature are good until power corrupts them.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 4  5

25. StanG on May 21st, 2010 8:52 pm

    “It’s a bit like your posts all over the net, when people question your posts, you make claims that are never substantiated with fact.”

    I strongly disagree.

    But, since Roger hasn’t mentioned any specific cases I have nothing particular to say either, just that this accusation is complete nonsense.

    I’ve had this anonymous guy who posted some “fcuk you” comment on my blog and didn’t give me even two minutes to notice it before going with a bigger post about me not letting opposite views. Then he posted this “proof” on New Mandala.

    I can’t speak for Somtow and what happened there but on my blog this behavior is not welcome, no matter what the opposing views are.

    Anyone wants to comment on Somtow’s actual content?

    I liked the part where he said his son is coming from a week in Chiang Mai and the first thing he say would be “Give me some Italian food,” while his other son, stranded in Europe, would demand “real food” on his arrival. Nothing about politics, just human nature.

    Katherine, there will be lots of stories, no doubt about that, the question is – will people buy into them or just nod in agreement and walk away?

    If, however, the stories are backed up by red TV channel, local radios, glossy magazines, and regular visits by big name red leaders, then we can start worrying again.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 6  5

26. Oneditorial on May 22nd, 2010 3:54 am

    I don’t mean to be off topic, but I wonder if you read this entry from Ajarn Somtow:

    http://www.somtow.org/2010/05/dont-blame-dan-rivers.html

    Quality comment? 0  1

27. Roger Ramjet on May 22nd, 2010 6:02 am

    StanG,

    There you go. You said absolutely nothing useful but you did manage to slip-in the last paragraph.

    We seem to forget what the protests were about with all the platitudes and fiery rhetoric; freedom of speech, no double standards and elections. Even Thais should have those rights.

    After 21 years in the Australian Army, with combat tours in Malaya and Vietnam and as an ex infantry instructor, I commented about the video of the M79, which was not an M79, but a flare gun. You misread what I wrote and then claimed I was wrong and you knew better because you were exROTC. I’m sorry StanG, but even the CRES later admitted that it was a flare gun and not an M79. My comment was, stop the rhetoric and stick to your area of expertise; in other words, add something useful, stop fanning the fires of hatred.

    This is not about sides, it’s not about the colour you wear or who you support, it’s about human life and the use of the Thai military forces to shoot Thai civilians, even General Anupong, after refusing a direct order to use the troops stated that it was a political conflict and had nothing to do with the Thai army.

    I wish people remembered that.

    Roger Ramjet

    Quality comment. You agree? 10  2

28. StanG on May 22nd, 2010 12:30 pm

    I didn’t hear CRES admitting it was a flare gun. I do remember Sansern calling it M79 in that announcement where he demonstrated how tear gas launcher works.

    I never claimed Roger was wrong, just said it could have been M79 with sawn off stock or a homemade launcher build to completely different specs, I never even claimed that it was indeed M79, earlier I told Jaded that whatever it was, it looked deadly.

    There were others who discounted flare gun theory earlier.

    I’m not going to argue whether my posts are useless or unsubstantiated just because I doubted Roger’s absolute supremacy on the subject.

    One of the emerging stories as it appeared on Prachatai:

    I spoke to a couple of people who claimed to have survived the crackdown at Ratchaprasong. One man lamented angrily, “Dozens of our brothers and sisters were killed, and bodies piled up. Some women and their children were also shot down.” Similar brutal accounts emerged from other survivors, and were repeated by other demonstrators. One man told the frustrated demonstrators “All of them died, those in the front row (next to the stage). We cannot give in now. We have to keep this place until the evening. Then we will go collect the bodies of the troops.” He continued “somebody using his camera to shoot the video of piles of bodies, this high (gesturing his hand to show the height).” …. “After our core leaders announced to call off the demo, the army bombed us. The grenade fell in front of the stage and hit those people dancing.”

    I doubt that the direct link is accessible in Thailand, I got it via their RSS feed.

    http://www.prachatai.org/english/node/1848

    Hot debate. What do you think? 4  5

29. David on May 22nd, 2010 12:46 pm

    I’m British, working and living in Bangkok. I’ve seen first hand the events unfold.

    I am worried and have been about the my job, as are many Thai people. People need to put bread on the table and pay for rent.

    I’m more than disappointed by some of the reporting by the media/press in the U.K. It seems reporters some were blinked, to the point of being under the spell of “group think.” Very dangerous. Some press were caught up in the moment, without taking a step back.

    Some reporters/photographers seemed to think it was a “bit of a laugh” or a joke. I saw one BBC reporter smiling and give a quick wave to a Thai camera on TV when the crackdown commenced. Couldn’t believe it.

    Arrogantly, not listening to carefully and patient warnings, the press stayed put, inside the protest area despite being told many times to leave the area. What in the world were the press thinking?

    The seriousness of the indirect effects of the protests had gone beyond a protest.

    What I haven’t seen reported anywhere, is follow-up to all where all of the weapons and ammunition that the “peaceful” protesters stole from security forces in April are/went.

    I was really scared at one point. Only had that sickening feeling a few times in my life, where I felt threatened for my life. In my road, far from the protest area, one of the banks 400 meters from my apartment area was blown up with grenades in daylight. The residents in the road were terrified, as reports filtered down that the rioters were coming down the road. It was panic, security guards, Thai and froreign residents had terror in their eyes, not knowing if the apartment/condos were going to be bombed and burned or if infact it would be safer to go in the condos due to bullets.

    Not taking sides, as I do not know the complexities of the politics, I saw true leadership by the PM in Thailand. His team giving updates on TV too, displayed courage and leadership.

    I would not be surprised, if the episode we have seen, becomes a text book case of true leadership.

    The press/media needs to re-evaluate the reporting and show leadership themselves, by not following the flock and listening to one sided carefully planned PR campaigns.

    Quality comment. You agree? 20  5

30. Vichai N on May 22nd, 2010 7:04 pm

    On the suggestion of StanG I made a foray at Prachatai -

    http://www.prachatai.org/english/node/1848

    It is an amazing account of somebody who heard from “survivors” about this and that … but mainly about “piles of bodies.”

    I left my post at Prachatai that I thought that poster was all crap … and I’ll stick to the government version thank you until they could substantiate their “pile of bodies” (a video clip or photo perhaps?).

    I encourage you all to make a similar visit. There are ways to access Prachatai even from Thailand.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 4  4

31. StanG on May 22nd, 2010 9:08 pm

    Just watched CRES presser on TV where Sansern showed, among other things, two M79 launchers, none of them looked like pictures on the Internet or pictures he showed earlier.

    Absolutely unrecognizable, both had pistol grips.

    The launcher used in the video could have been the second one or something entirely different.

    There were also two or three different kinds of the grenade itself. That would explain the unusual amount of smoke.

    I’m saying that no one cannot claim with any confidence what exactly was or wasn’t used in that particular video.

    Quality comment? 3  3

32. GeGee on May 22nd, 2010 9:40 pm

    That might be true Stan. But the real impact of this will come from the videos.

    I know we’ve all seen them, but I bet a lot of the international media haven’t.

    It’s clever to turn the fire of the Red leaders hate and propaganda, back on them.

    Slowly they are learning how to play the PR game.

    Next job – and more important, is to win the Thai people’s hearts.

    That means turning promises into actions – much harder.

    Quality comment? 3  0

33. Jaded on May 22nd, 2010 10:16 pm

    Sure Stan. Chain of evidence issues aside, it was interesting watching the guy fondle and stroke the ordinance. He seemed to be positively quivering at one point when he returned to the rostrum after toughing some M79 ammunition. I felt a bit sorry for the poor dipos who must have been wondering how safe they were if all this was still “live” and so recently acquired. In theory a single booby trapped round could do a lot of damage and to judge by the faces as the camera panned through the military attaches this was a possibility that they must have been considering. But naturally the Thai army would have carefully examined and defused all live ordinance before placing such a large crowd in proximity to this amount of explosive material … Being a military man, Sansern might be supposed to be quite familiar with these things so his evident excitement must surely have been that evidence of redshirt perfidy was now being demonstrated … Mercifully when the fragmentation grenades were held up the person holding them seemed less excited by the experience.

    Seriously though, triumphalism apart, it’s surely obvious to everyone that if the redshirts had used the massed material on display there would have been hundreds of deaths. Relative to that potentially enormous toll in human lives you can say that Thailand got off lightly. Many deaths yes, massive property damage surely, but not the bloodbath/massacre that we all feared. The attack on the Dusit Hotel indicated the potential intensity of a real fight for control of the demonstration area. So however you interpret the course of events you have to give the military credit. It was a dirty job they were given but they did it better than most people expected.

    PS: I just saw Vichai N’s post. I certainly hope that the version of events from the mainstream media is shown to be correct. My last comment was based entirely on events as they have been depicted in The Nation and Bangkok Post.

    The army is the only political institution in Thailand that still displays real competence and therefore it retains a measure of real credibility. It would be enormously destabilizing if it could be shown that anything like this rumor reported by Vichai N was true. In fact it would be so destabilizing that without any evidence to support these allegations it’s my view that their airing in public is dangerously subversive, If this story is false then the government’s blocking of the site should be considered entirely justified. It’s scandalous to further promote the divisions in society and stoke bitterness with stories like this.

    Quality comment. You agree? 11  0

34. Roger Ramjet on May 23rd, 2010 5:44 am

    StanG,

    I too watched the CRES presentation. The M79 they showed was just that, an M79, all it was missing was front the leaf sights that can be raised for shots over 100 mts. There was no pistol grip. M79s do not have a pistol grip for the last time.

    All the M79 HE rounds were live, as I said before, they must be fired out of the M79 launcher and then they arm themselves after a minimum distance of 15 meters.

    Not one of the military attachés looked uncomfortable, they just looked bored.

    The other launcher that was displayed was the smoke launcher, it had a pistol grip on the front stock.

    Both can be found very easily on the internet.

    If anyone has visited The Nation you would have seen an article about three M67 grenades being found, minus the launcher.

    The M67 is a practice grenade round made from cast iron, it has no launcher, it is thrown by hand, the same as a baseball. It has a fuse assembly, a black powder smoke bag and the body is the same as the M26 fragmentation grenade, except for the colour (blue) which donates practice.

    The Nation has a very good photo of bored military attachés

    As I said before, stop trying to fan the fires of hatred with false and misleading information.

    Roger Ramjet

    Quality comment? 1  5

35. Vichai N on May 23rd, 2010 9:30 am

    I would like to address this question to “Jaded,” and all you guys too:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBDm-jA3N80

    See the video above (or don’t view it up to you).

    - The reds movement originally proclaimed a one million people march but fell way short of that objective as only about 150,000 to 200,000 reached Bangkok in late March 2010.

    - By the third week of May and at time of crackdown only about 5,000 hard core reds remained at Rachaprasong.

    If you look at the video above, you could conclude that the theme of the reds movement in short is “Hatred vs. Bangkok” and the reds’ leadership rhetorics kept repeating on this theme at their every gathering. So I suspect that the “Hatred” theme had turned off a lot of peaceful reds; hence the diminished numbers by the end of the protest (and fear of the military crackdown too to a lesser extent).

    The question is: Is the reds’ movement/ideology founded on hatred or not?

    (BD: But I don’t hear those turned off reds speaking up against that campaign of hatred. Comradeship?)

    Hot debate. What do you think? 7  4

36. GeGee on May 23rd, 2010 12:03 pm

    Local polls are often not reliable indicators of public thinking, but if my upcountry red supporting in-laws and several red Bangkok friends are any indication, what Vichai says, is credible.

    More, without the number one channel of “hate” (PTV) it is also possible, the vast amount of “re-education” going on – via the free to air channels – is playing its part in this, too.

    Quality comment? 4  0

37. 1976 on May 23rd, 2010 12:08 pm

    “I win, you lose,” pointing out more who did right, who did wrong. Deeper divisions than even in the past. It’s all about punishment now and people want to appear to be on the winner side. I heard from everywhere that “Thai people need to love each other” but in reality Thai people hate each other and want to see their opponents sink down deep. Isn’t it sad? Like Thai Buddhism says, keep on hating is like putting the knife on your own heart, why do Thai Buddhists still do it to themselves then? Please stop posts that stir even worse divisions. Please.

    (BD: I beg your pardon?? There is a difference between stirring hatred and trying to understand what’s going on, please. In shameless self-promotion I might add this is probably one of the more unbiased sites offering all views in the News Feed.)

    Quality comment? 1  5

38. 1976 on May 23rd, 2010 12:27 pm

    BD, there’s a fine line between stirring hatred and trying to understand what’s going on. I just hope people don’t manipulate the situations and evidence to point the fingers, that’s all.

    Quality comment. You agree? 5  0

39. Jaded on May 23rd, 2010 12:28 pm

    Allowing for the fact that the lumpen membership of the various coloured shirts movements actually believe the rhetoric, and are encouraged and assisted by the various criminal mafias that perceive their special or local interests as being aligned with one side of the other, I’d say the real actors who determine the course of this particular conflict are/were powerful figures in Thai society. But what these competing powerful groups are doing is fanning the flames of a frustrated society where social possibilities seem predetermined from birth. Class, race, language, religion all divide Thai society but it’s the rigidly hierarchical mentality that is really causing problems. No matter how intensive attempts to indoctrinate the population it’s going to be difficult to put the genie of literacy, numeracy and basic access to uncensored information sources back into the bottle. So change seems to me to be inevitable and, setting aside the idiotic triumphalism of some of the “winners” of this conflict you can see that leading politicians recognize this is the new reality.

    I hope that after this round of conflict the people who have vetoed Abhisit’s original program may find cause to reflect on their opposition to gradual and moderate change. Otherwise the fires and killings in central Bangkok are likely to be the end of the beginning as Churchill once said. At stake now is what Thailand’s future looks like.

    For most of its recent history Thailand’s society has been organized to optimize big business opportunities to create a low cost base from which to export raw materials, produce manufactured goods and mercilessly exploit labour. The presence, publicly and privately of the military in politics, supported for many years by the US has meant that there has been a very retarded development of the kind of codified institutions that would be needed for this society to develop to a point where popular democracy was possible. Instead what has developed is a bureaucracy that perpetuates a semi feudal system where the holders of power can rule through patronage and pillage without an real opposition. In this sense I believe that Thailand is trapped by its social development up until this point. However this pattern is also common in Latin America where U.S. influence has also been strong and the last decade has seen a revival of many of these formerly supine basket cases. U.S. dominated and ruled for the benefit of pro-US elites with periodic interventions of the military, these states have managed to restart the process of social development with a new emphasis on social justice even though they are also burdened with heavily compromised administrative and justice systems.

    Of course this conflict is about personalities too. And it’s been commented on before but for the sake of clarity I’ll say it again. It’s an irony of this conflict that the reactionaries offer conditional support to a leader like Abhisit whose inclinations are liberal and progressive while the more militant or assertive voices for reform find themselves in an alliance with a corrupt crony capitalist and vicious authoritarian like Thaksin.

    As some kind of social change is inevitable, and the society has been indoctrinated to reject the concept of equality, Thailand is now very vulnerable to the kind of alternative social engineering that a strong leader would offer. The problem with perpetuating the myth of a pure and benevolent leader is that it can be hijacked quite easily and this is essentially what people are saying when they suggest that Thaksin wants to be president.

    So, I would say, that at least up until now, the support for Abhisit was predicated on denying change through a liberal presentation of a reactionary reality. That’s clearly not working and if Abhisit fails to convince his supporters that his very modest program of reforms is the way forward then I suspect the Reds ideology of hatred, as you put it, will begin to dominate public discourse with the most serious consequences for Thailand …

    Quality comment. You agree? 15  0

40. JJ on May 23rd, 2010 1:57 pm

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    “Idiotic triumphalism” Jaded?

    All I can see are sore losers.

    Others demonstrate relief it’s over and disbelieve how people can be manipulated in such a way, making it highly plausible that soon the big old liar is the big old democrat again, as if nothing happened.

    Reds turned out to be their own worst enemy, nothing to do with idiotic triumphalism, but the triumph of reason.

    Poorly rated comment. You agree? 0  7

41. Roger Ramjet on May 23rd, 2010 2:54 pm

    Jaded,

    May I compliment you on a well thought, balance article, without taking sides.

    Roger

    Quality comment. You agree? 9  0

42. StanG on May 23rd, 2010 4:51 pm

    Here, right at the front, is the first M79 launcher shown by Sansern, he even fitted an empty shell to show how it loads.

    http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs594.snc3/31311_125407444152712_120544157972374_251977_420031_n.jpg

    http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs534.ash1/31311_125407440819379_120544157972374_251976_7259406_n.jpg

    No pistol grip, eh?

    Here is the second that looks like the launcher from the video:

    http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs574.snc3/31311_125407450819378_120544157972374_251978_6620971_n.jpg

    http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs594.snc3/31311_125407594152697_120544157972374_251987_2312611_n.jpg

    Here is the “standard” launcher:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Grenade_launcher_M79_1.jpg

    I hope I’m not spreading too much hatred with my absolutely useless, unsubstantiated, false and misleading links to the pictures.

    You are a funny guy, Roger, to accuse me of fanning hatred.

    (BD: OK we’ll leave it with this last of exchanges guys – BTW, didn’t think those military attachés looked especially bored.)

    Hot debate. What do you think? 4  5

43. Vichai N on May 23rd, 2010 6:50 pm

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    My question to Jaded was: Is the reds’ movement/ideology founded on hatred or not?

    From the convoluted double-speak response Jaded gave, I’ll take it that his response to my question was a convoluted double-speak resounding YES.

    Poorly rated comment. You agree? 1  7

44. Jaded on May 23rd, 2010 10:35 pm

    Yes there seems to be lots of hatred around now. A strong desire for revenge seems manifest on some sides too. Saw some old reactionaries on Channel 11 suggesting capital punishment for the instigators of the protest. And I am sure that if the reds were still broadcasting there would be something quite objectionable to view there too.

    I am sorry Vichai N as I didn’t indicate that I was replying directly to your query. I agree with you.

    “Allowing for the fact that the lumpen membership of the various coloured shirts movements actually believe the rhetoric -”

    - was merely pointing out that the people who actually demonstrate have been manipulated.

    In my experience fanning the flames of hatred with incendiary statements and suggestions generally leads to an escalation. That’s why I was so strong in my condemnation of unsubstantiated allegations that appeared on Prachatai. I think your trumpeting of provocative, hate inspiring red rhetoric should also be condemned. If you want to raise emotions further then continue in this vein.

    What you call convoluted double speak I call analysis. I won’t be engaging in the blame game because, frankly, I believe that this sort of thinking becomes part of the problem. If you believe that you have right on your side and they believe that they have right on their side then nothing short of the anihilation of one side will resolve the situation. This prolongs the conflict, and while it may lead to victory for one side as it did in say Sri Lanka, the cost of victory is very high.

    Many people are very hurt at the moment and feelings are running high. I respecct your frustration but I urge you to reconsider your attitude. It could have been much worse. I think Thailand’s government managed to avoid a much greater disaster than the one that actually occurred. The PM and the army have done this country some great service and it would be a pity to throw away the advantage gained by deepening the division that has been created.

    There I go again being convoluted and speaking in double speak, right? My point in a nutshell then can be expressed crudely.

    Whose interest do you think is served by stirring this shit further? This talk of “hatred” is just shit stirring.

    Quality comment. You agree? 15  0

45. Hobby on May 24th, 2010 5:56 am

    “The PM and the army have done this country some great service and it would be a pity to throw away the advantage gained by deepening the division that has been created.”

    What you been smoking Jaded?

    Killing to avoid a (legitimizing) election is not what I would call a “great service” (other than to those who knew they would have been on the losing side of that election).

    There’s a massive propaganda campaign underway to obfuscate that fact, but I doubt its going to work on those who care about democracy.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 4  8

46. Vichai N on May 24th, 2010 9:22 am

    “I think your trumpeting of provocative, hate inspiring red rhetoric should also be condemned.”

    – Jaded

    I believe this sentence was addressed to me. Explain to me further Jaded why I should be condemned for pointing out to the reds (both peaceful and hateful) that their “ideology of hatred” will get them nowhere but hell.

    But I do agree that certain red hardcores (Hobby and Prachatai for instance) do get very agitated when reminded so … but their reaction encourages me that the truth had started to burn them to their bones.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 4  6

47. Hobby on May 24th, 2010 10:11 am

    Vichai N: I got over my hatred of Thaksin a long time ago (when will you?).

    FWIW, IMO, for one to get a guide as to where truth might be, the blocked sites need to be unblocked so that Thai people can see all sides of the story, and make up their own minds.

    Hot debate. What do you think? 7  4

48. 6969 on May 24th, 2010 3:37 pm

    This Hobby guy, next he’ll say is Thaksin had nothing to do with the protests. He said that already? Many times? Sorry.

    Quality comment? 4  2

49. Vichai N on May 24th, 2010 6:45 pm

    “I got over my hatred of Thaksin a long time ago (when will you?).”

    - Hobby

    Are we living in the same planet Hobby?

    Thaksin means to kill and burn us (Bangkok people) all? I merely distrusted Thaksin before May 2010. Thaksin today is my icon of unadulterated abomination.

    Quality comment? 4  3

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