Thing is of course opinions here will not in any way, shape of form affect Elite policy. Dare I suggest they screw the country and allow the peasants to screw (figuratively) the foreigners. Keeps money in the poors’ pockets and keeps ‘em quiet and servile. La da da daa da…

I have to say that Jaded’s comments here are the most articulate and thought provoking that I’ve seen on this timely issue.

“I sort of agree with you about the sanctimonious comments. The comments section of Dan’s site, which I still enjoy and check daily, has been invaded by one or two people with a gleeful contempt for Thai society.”

Not letting this one pass, since I am probably one of those “invaders” you refer to.

If you read more carefully you will be able to understand that no commentator I have seen (including myself) has a contempt for Thai society, gleeful or otherwise.

We merely note that it is not the idyllic and perfect society that those of a Pollyanna inclination are often moved to waffle on about, often in a wide-eyed but not very intelligent enthusiasm.

There are many aspects of Thai society which are pretty damn good, but there are way more than there should be which are just plain medieval, and these are they which rightly attract the criticism of thinking people. Should we not do that for fear of fading some of the stars in your eyes?

“Explain that one to me real slow and tender – I’m working with an insecure American brain here.”

You are doubtless much more familiar with the workings of your American brain than I am so I couldn’t possibly comment on whether it is insecure or slow or anything else.

When does your tourist visa expire my friend?

(BD: Pat’s here on a work permit I might add.)

I sort of agree with you about the sanctimonious comments. The comments section of Dan’s site, which I still enjoy and check daily, has been invaded by one or two people with a gleeful contempt for Thai society.

Here’s where you lost me. Asking a new acquaintance how long they’ve lived in Thailand or what they do for a living is the mark of a “Neanderthal expat” or an insecure American? How exactly do you greet people?

Explain that one to me real slow and tender – I’m working with an insecure American brain here.

Like most people I’m not interested in passing judgement on the private morality of individuals unless their actions are of direct concern to me. My previous comments were not intended to be personal. I don’t know enough about anyone’s private life to possibly judge their circumstances. If we can let go of the personal issues and think about the thing in a more general way then perhaps we can find common ground?

Lets say that prostitution in a general sense means to offer sexual services for material benefit. That’s a definition that could cover a lot of ground. Lets also say that offering sexual services is the only realistic way to earn any sort of serious income for the poverty stricken people who constitute the vast majority of the sexual service providers. Lets say that people remain people even after suffering terribly and it is possible for serious and long lasting bonds to form between workers and clients. There’s been plenty written on that subject …

Would you agree that someone who is totally socially disadvantaged and born into poverty is likely to work in this business because they are probably extremely vulnerable to outrageous exploitation? Or do you prefer to believe that the flesh trade is just another example of the capitalist system effectively exploiting semi willing workers? Either way I would recognize that the flesh trade is not the only huge industry in Thailand that exploits workers in conditions that approach slavery. If we could take at least some of these points as common ground between us then I’d simply make this commentary.

By facilitating the flesh trade and encouraging the staffing of it with the disenfranchised, the poor and the desperate, the current Thai government are directly implicated in the destruction of a great many lives. By very publicly encouraging large numbers of Farang residents and visitors to take advantage of Thailand’s special business environment, these pimps and whoremasters involve us to a point where it appears that we are all in some way colluding with their exploitation culture. If it was just some dirty politicians defecating on their supine lower class (as is the case in many developing countries) I would not feel personally involved. But here I feel that they have thoroughly implicated the foreign community in their conspiracy to promote sexual exploitation.

For me this is a political issue and not a moral issue. The morality of most Thai people is such that prostitution is seen clearly as a social problem. There is no moral or ethical argument that Thai people would offer to support the government in its promotion of the sex business. Yet when Abhisit appointed the Commerce minister he clearly indicated that involvement in the exploitation based sex trade is compatible with public ethical standards. Clearly this is as grotesque an idea to Thai people as it is to me.

The clear stance of the government in supporting the commercial sex trade is something we can legitimately comment on. Commenting on events like the neutering of Thailand’s Human Right’s organizations, the mass murder of the Rohingya, the outrageous deportation of the Hmong and the murderous counter-insurgency campaign in the south might be hazardous to your future in Thailand. These aren’t subjects that can be safely addressed as they are rightly speaking, internal Thai political matters. And any one of those issues can be justified in coldly Machiavellian terms as part of the logic of power politics. But even by the traditional Thai standards of public morality the hypocrisy surrounding the sex industry is absolutely stunning. It’s a classic “emperor has no clothes” situation.

I don’t know where you are from but if my national government supported the destruction of hundreds of thousands of lives of its citizens and the continued exploitation of the most vulnerable sections of the community then I’d be disgusted. When things like that happen decent people should be outraged. Of course my government is corrupt enough to bail out big business and banks, protect vested interests and loyally service the requirements of an unelected and unaccountable elite. Maybe we should be outraged … But it would be hard to point to a society where that doesn’t happen normally. Thailand has plenty of outrages going on. Many of these outrages it shares with neighbours and other developing countries. But I don’t think there is another government on the planet that deliberately appoints a Commerce minister with a background like this one. To make sexual exploitation of the vulnerable a tacitly acknowledged national policy is to redefine the term “dirty” in politics. To allow public policy to be set by someone of this background implies that those who rule have absolutely no respect for large segments of Thai people who come from socially disadvantaged backgrounds. And, as far as i know, this attitude has no parallel. It’s outrage not sanctimony that I feel. Outrage that by being resident here I am colluding with and therefore implicated in this evil.

And not to be forgotten in our quest for ironic insight into Thailand and how it works, one of the larger financial contributors to Thailand’s Democrat Party is none other than the minister of commerce’s family which are the original developers/owners not only of the Poseidon brothel but apparently others as well, in Bangkok as well as in the provinces.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. How many times have I sat down at a table with friends and aquaintances and their hired prostitutes? Far too many…

Chris:

Agreed. Economic growth destroys the societies that its proponents claim it serves. I was convinced of this a long time ago by the redoubtable Richard Douthwaite who used to be a neighbor.

We certainly need to facilitate the free flow of information about the murkier aspects of Thailand’s society. My point is that Saul’s tone and his heavy handed ironic suggestions are clouding the true seriousness of the underlying information where it is factually based. And clearly some of it is obviously speculation but equally he has some nice factoids like the Iranian penchant for sex change. The Islamic factor has to be taken into account in the more conventional aspects of the sex industry too. (Iran does seem different though. You can read about Shia tolerence in Robert Baer’s new book on Iran and also learn about Shia trial marriages.)

His list of suggestions, almost certainly meant to ironically expose the grotesque logic of sexual exploitation, is unfortunately already out of date as several of his tongue in cheek suggestions have already been realized. For example those culturally familiar Russian “banyas,” saunas, already exist. Two weeks ago I heard a graphic description of such a place courtesy of a friend who does business with Russian “biznizmen” and is a leading figure in his professional field. I could make a case for several of his other suggestions already being n existence too.

That’s the problem with his approach. It’s way beyond the capacity of any writer to create a Swiftian satire of this awful business … This kind of ironic mockery can only succeed in diminishing the commercial sex industries awfulness and encouraging people to accept the status quo. Rich is right. We are all culpable as we are all witnesses to a great atrocity against the vulnerable and the needy in Thailand. Why remain mute or pretend to accept the premise that there is nothing important at stake when this officially sanctioned business continues to thrive. That’s why I think the appointment of the Thai commerce minister is so truly extraordinary. With this one appointment the government of Thailand has clearly demonstrated that the mass destruction of the lives of hundreds of thousands of people is officially sanctioned and supported …