Dr. Weng Talks: No Thaksin Protector?
Well am not really a fan of the current red tactics, no, there isn’t any real strategy for any betterment. What looks red could easily be yellow – hey both want democracy with the king as the head of state. But that doesn’t mean that one has to concrete-caste one’s head.
So I took a stroll through Bangkok’s neo-apocalyptic red zone in the hands of urban vagabonds (see the little photo essay below) and met Dr. Weng Tojirakarn, an approachable, from the outside pleasant man who at younger age led Buddhist students and was accused of being a communist. Authorities sent gunmen to kill him, he says. He fled.
From 1976 to 1980 he lived in the jungle and practiced as a doctor, whereas two thirds of the time he was down with malaria. Dr. Weng’s the probably more reasonable voice within the red triumvirate. Here’s our little chat – yes I tried to get a feel if the reds have outgrown Thaksin. Will the doctor make you switch sides?
Dr. Weng, the international media seem to buy your struggle, some even romanticize your movement, local media not. Why’s that.
Because now today democracy is the mainstream of the world and this is a peaceful demonstration, we are a peaceful movement. Yesterday Abhisit would like to create war, and all the lies they accuse us of.
What lies?
That we want to overthrow the monarchy. They intentionally create absolute lies, it’s the classic standard to denounce a political opponent since Pridi Banomyong. It’s 78 years since the fall of the absolute monarchy, and yes it’s a pity that Thailand had 23 coup d’états. In average every three years we have a coup, how can Thailand develop and protect the basic life of the people with equality of chance. I’m talking about economic chance, political chance, social chance, cultural chance.
But those issues need reform, not revolution. Why your upheaval now? Abhisit continued and improved many of Thaksin policies. Thaksin for himself copied many of the Democrats’ polices, just renamed and repackaged them.
What about Suvarnabhumi Airport? Where is the rule of law? That was a terrorist act. They are terrorists and Abhist does nothing …
Yes but I asked about Abhisit’s policies. We know, you want democracy, but people’s life today is not that much worse than under Thaksin, is it. Why the rush?
No, Abhisit is fake, he’s stupid. He pays like 600 to 800 baht to families, where is the equality? So you have to buy kids’ cloths to join school activities, you have to pay more and more money, like 2,000 baht.
What would Thaksin do?
I’m not a defendant and not a protector of Thaksin, but people tell me he took their kids away from drugs. I don’t know about extrajudicial killings of drug dealers, but four years on not a single case is proven. They still cannot sue him. Look, our political line is very obvious. We want democracy with the king as head of state. We want to get rid of the bureaucratic system. Thaksin created the strongest democratic system, but Thaksin is a byproduct.
Well plenty of people would counter that 1) Thaksin eroded independent organizations, 2) tried to get rid of checks and balances, 3) placed loyal people in key positions and 4) put the media under enormous pressure. That’s not democracy.
Nothing is proven. Abhisit now closes down websites. Thaksin did not close websites. And now two TV journalists have been banned from TV show. These two ladies just told the truth. TV3′s Thapanee Ietsrichai and Wassana Nanuam.
But it’s difficult to deny that Thaksin still is the backbone of your movement.
He is just a speaker. He’s a good speaker and an ex-prime minister. Many remember him very well. Remember how they get children back from drugs, how they get cardiac surgery for 30 baht. The half million baht before no one could afford. Or many people have lumbar issues from the hard work, from bending over all day long. Thaksin helped. He finished the underground lottery and made it legal. Gangsters and the mafia lost huge profits, that’s why gangsters and the mafia hate him, and drug traffickers. A certain portion of these bad people joined the PAD.
How come many people think Thaksin is exactly the opposite of what you say.
Because he is so arrogant. He created a lot of enemies. Intentionally or not, that’s his personality.
Well he be back?
I’m not concerned about him coming back or not. I want democracy with the king as head of state. The government must work. I’m not at all concerned about Thaksin. Most people walked across Thaksin already.
But Thaksin himself said he wants to be given another chance to be back in power and prove himself. Well that must be what people want …?
That’s his individual idea, his hope.
Is Thaksin a changed man?
I hope so. He may have learned a lesson from history, what is good, what is not good. What made him so many enemies. So many love him. So many hate him.
Thank you for your time Dr. Weng.
(BD: Well the only proof if Thaksin is outgrown will be a red election campaign without the playing of the Thaksin card/factor. And, if elected to lead a government, to not only concentrate on attempts to turn back time via legislative means to undo what they consider the work of a junta.)
Good article & interesting in a lot of ways.
Thanks for the interesting interview, but it’s a shame that most of your questions focused on Thaksin, even when it was clear that Dr. Weng was trying to distance the red shirts’ cause from him. I think The Nation already has the Thaksin angle covered.
(BD: Well this is not The Nation. Didn’t have much time and thought all the rest is already extensively covered. Thaksin’s the make or break factor for many.)
I’d had the impression that Ratchaprasong reeked of urine and feces and was becoming a sort of bedlam of trapped protesters turning feral. I’d been concerned about the spread of infectious disease, such as H1N1 and cholera, from lack of proper sanitation. BD’s photos show, to my relief, a surprisingly tidy and orderly atmosphere. For the sake of everyone but especially innocent participants such as the little girl sleeping in one of BD’s photos, I hope the site doesn’t become a public health hazard.
And thanks for transcribing that interview with Dr. Weng. It was interesting to read, in an unfiltered way from a neutral source, what a UDD leader had to say.
It seems to me that Thaksin is the single most over-hyped and over-reported issue out there.
Much of “the rest” had been blocked, banned or silenced by threats of violence or prison.
Thaksin is rightly the make or break issue for how many people view the red shirts. I personally would hate to see him come back to Thailand.
But Thailand’s problems existed before him and are here after him. “The rest” was the important part.
Thailand is ruled by retired and serving military with 700 generals heavily involved in legal and illegal business. Their power is secured by the fiction of protection of the monarchy and massive wealth and influence links with all the important economic structures in Thailand.
For examples, the Thai military own banks, TV, radio and are represented and control the airlines, construction, manufacturing, agriculture.
The military are active in managing the politics of Thailand and work in many capacities in all regions of Thailand. The military controls legal and illegal labor flows across the borders and the insurgency in the south and are immune from legal and government oversight. The government exists only to provide stories and excuses for their actions.
Full franchise democratic elections are a direct threat to the military because they take the power of choice of MPs from them and worse, elected governments can claim the authority of the people and introduce controls on the military.
After he was elected Thaksin was foolish and brave enough to introduce some controls, there were calls that he was “interfering with the military promotions and reshuffle” (which a democratic government has a duty to do) and “threatening the monarchy” which he wasnt, but the military always falls back on this to secure their power.
It is the challenge for every government to try to bring the military under control. Abhisit cannot because he cannot claim the mandate of the people.
The red shirts want free and fair elections so their government can claim the authority to rule Thailand and at least try to control the military.
Robin, I can verify that the place is clean. I visited around 6 pm last week, and I didn’t see more than a days worth of trash anywhere. The place did smell a bit, sort of like a body oder smell. It was extra hot that day, so probably why. They had public showers and garbage was piled orderly. Not enough latrines however, in my opinion.
As for the Thaksin issue, if Thaksin doesn’t come back, anyone the UDD puts up for election will immediately be accused of being a puppet of Thaksin.
David Brown,
I don’t think the military owns any banks anymore. They seem to only have 1.44% of Thai Military Bank (although I have heard that is because they looted it so badly that there was no way to recapitalize it).
http://www.set.or.th/set/companyholder.do?symbol=TMB&language=en&country=US
However, they and their allies should be at least as great a focus as the one individual, Thaksin, who has gotten 99% of the attention. They have had a much bigger and more sustained role bringing Thailand to where it is today.
Has anyone noticed how dismissive Weng is when it was pointed out to him what Abhisit government has done? I doubt he even took time to listen and have a thought process on that possibility that Abhisit government is not all evil.
True democracy, huh?
The problem with Weng (as well as many in the red and yellow movements) is that he does not really listen to dissenting voices. He’s good at rhetoric, I have to admit, but it is largely style but not substance. Much like Abhisit, you could say. In the end, I still don’t understand what’s so urgent.
I personally think the brightest mind in the red leadership is Nattawut. Seems to me that he’s the one making all the day-to-day political calculations.
Agree, however, that the movement has outgrown Thaksin, but whom does Weng want to govern Thailand? Perhaps, Thailand would be best governed by Weng himself.
Well, he’s an idealist and has got a strong conviction that would make him immune to facts and other people’s views.
What else do you need from a politician?
I also don’t get what Weng meant by saying kids still need to buy school uniforms themselves. Didn’t Abhisit’s government cover those expenses as well? I’m pretty sure that uniforms and books are provided. Or, he meant the money is too little?
Moronic interview followed by, mostly, moronic comments. We can’t talk about the REAL root of all this, it would be illegal; even Weng and the reds appear to not recognize their real nemesis. Beating Weng to death with Thaksin questions/remarks was both amateurish and juvenile, most of all it was a waste of a grand opportunity. You have obviously been drinking the propaganda kool-aid for far too long.
I would love to see you interview Chamlong or someone along those lines. So now Thaksin stole all the Democrats’ policy ideas? Interesting take on his record.
Hi Dan,
Just responding to your tweet. I wasn’t there to observe it but many people have claimed that the grenade attack on Silom last week featured firing from the 5th floor of Chula hospital. The newspapers in their coverage used the coded phrase “tall building” to refer to this. I can’t say whether this is true but it is certainly a very important building as it both overlooks the Red area and is associated with the leaders of movements that are actively opposed to the reds.
While I did not observe the grenade attack I did see an attempt by blue scarf wearing military to infiltrate this very strategically important high ground yesterday. The men in question were heavily armed with G3 assualt rifles. The soldier who spoke to me was carrying three spare magazines in his smock’s pockets and I noticed several of his fellows carrying loaded clips in the same way. Interestingly the police on the other side of the road retreated behind their riot shields and drew their sidearms. As the range of a pistol is no more than 50 meters at most, there did not seem to be any other targets available except the military but I may have misinterpreted their gestures.
There is no doubt in my mind that both sides are aware that Chula Hospital holds the key position if there is an attack from the Silom direction or even a struggle for control of the intersection. As the hospital refused to help police injured in the PAD protests its now associated in many minds with the forces most antagonistic to the Reds. Knowing some members of the medical faculty of Chula personally I would say that their fears that the hospital might be used as a point of observation or aggression cannot be dismissed as paranoid. There is a great deal of hatred amongst these medicos for the values that they see the reds as representing.
Taking all these factors into account if I were you I would be cautious about propagandizing the reds’ incursion into the hospital as unprovoked or unreasonable.
(BD: What is wrong is wrong, even Dr. Weng apologizes. Whatever side one’s defending, police were furthermore negotiating with a red leader wanted by arrest warrant … What you are propagating is the rule and victory of anarchy.)
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Uh, you think one would diversify the portfolio of questions outside of just “Thaksin this, Thaksin that” good effort getting down there to do an interview but a squandered opportunity …
You need to get over your obsession with Thaksin, you wasted a perfect oppertunity by concentrating on your own obsessions with someone who has little or nothing to do with the true real problems in Thailand and its political issues.
The Thaksin fetish is boring. What questions would you ask of Abhisit, if you could get inside the military base?
It’s a shame that all you talked about was Thaksin.
A good opportunity to find out about red shirt political ideas wasted.
The army of Thaksin apologetics coming out with a vengeance. No surprise there, classic ostrich attitude. Can hear see no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.
Thaksin’s the factor that holds the reds together. Talk to the people at Ratchaprasong, many of them sporting their own little Thaksin regalia.
Without the ire of this one single man we wouldn’t be where we’re now. Come next election, all we gonna hear is Thaksin, Thaksin, Thaksin. And that’s the danger. See how Dr. Weng portrays the reds’ silent patron?
Yes could have asked the Dr. why the hate campaign, what next, how could the reds deny they’re using weapons, how could they expect to win the hearts and minds of the silent majority, and so on. This all has been asked and answered.
And their political platform? There isn’t any, don’t delude yourself.
So much talk among the brave keyboard revolutionaries about the “real” issues. The true real issue here remains the hate of one single man inspiring others. Wake up. Indoctrination at work. Following the red logic every people in the world would find some good reasons to occupy a downtown, obstruct life and scorn the rule of law. They don’t.
At the end of the day it’s about the reallocation of money. Old money, new money. Old elite, new elite. They promise it’s gonna be fair. They also say they’re peaceful.
BangkokDan
BKK Dan, this isn’t China I don’t think any of are??? (wumaodang /i.e. 50 cent posters/paid posters), I am going to grad school though so I am looking for disposable income 5555. Uhm suggestion: learn to take constructive criticism. As a “journalist” or blogger you should identify your own biases and then try to minimize them, not put them on full display unless you’re a tabloid journalist. This is a multi-dimensional conflict involving ethnicity, linguistics, culture, economics, civil-military relations, intra-military issues, the Sangha, assorted unmentionable individuals and institutions, ect. ect. You try to pigeonhole it about one man which is plain and simple naivety. Again thanks for taking your time but reflect so you can do more next time.
Late night last night Dan. I got out of the “armchair” and, pausing briefly at the Irish pub for a Guinness, i took a little wander down to the area in question. While I agree with you that hospitals should remain neutral ground it’s unfortunately the case, as I pointed out in my last post, that this particular hospital is the key feature to dominate the reds in that area. The military went on high alert while I was there and once again I had a chat with a soldier but, being a little sensitive to even the remotest possibility of weapons being discharged, I decided not to proceed any further. It looked to me like it’s possible that the military are present already but I didn’t get close enough. I’m no hero and my armchair is probably quite close enough!
This armchair commentator still thinks the reds have a point. A quick look at a map will reveal that were the military to approach the demonstration from Chula, they would easily split the demonstration and cut off people at Silom Road. So if for the sake of argument, there was something to lure the more pugnacious element of the red crowd down to the barricade at Silom, there would be quite a good chance of putting most of these people in the same place and then, using Chula as a base, closing a cordon around them from behind. As the declared aim of the government is not to hurt “innocent” people this might be a way to achieve their aim. But for that situation to develop no one in the Red camp could be aware of the presence of the military in Chula until they declared themselves. I’d bet that the Reds are keeping an eye on things very carefully.
On the subject of hospitals and the military in Thailand it might be remembered that the military showed no tenderness towards hospital patients in 1992. Again you can argue that events that occurred 18 years ago have no relevance to the present but I’d be inclined to think that the Red’s would be aware of the record of the military respecting hospitals and this would make them cautious …
I see someone mentioned the generals and their commercial interests. I will repeat a story coming directly from a foreign board member of Thai Military Bank. There was a board meeting last week and instead of the normal attendees two Thai military ladies took their places. Tongue in cheek, one of the foreign board members wandered over to them and asked why General Anupong was not attending as usual that day. Her reply as paraphrased by that board member was that he has to deal with the “war.”
Jaded: incursions into a hospital are reasonable? I am struggling at this point to even imagine what planet you might be living on.
This is so depressive, look how low we’ve sunk. Now the reds have even the right to raid a hospital and the hospital has to evacuate the sick and the ill and the dying. Wake up guys, there is no excuse for any of this. What’s first, the hospital or the reds? In any war, and the reds obviously want one, clearly marked medical facilities and doctors and patients are off limits. Military personal used the hospital? If so that’s rightly so. Better protect those poor patients. Shame on anyone defending such a red intrusion. Go find another rally site! How can we be shown much clearer what lowlives certain reds are, not even respecting basic rights of the sick and dying. Red democracy?! Can’t wait.
(BD: Am afraid Jaded I can only second that.)
I don’t mean to imply that it’s correct to militarize a hospital. And I certainly don’t mean to suggest that the patients of the hospital are not being treated with great disrespect and lives are being endangered by the reds. I don’t even want to suggest that the reds are led by particularly nice people who represent the interests of the people that they claim to represent.
But Thailand is now on a the verge of a deep division along class lines and repressing the people in the demonstration site could trigger a much bigger conflict.
It’s clear this has now morphed into something like a mass popular movement with aims that, apart from wanting new elections, are very very vague. From what has been reported about what happened in the provinces, and the casual conversations that I am having with people like taxi drivers, shop assistants, cooks, hotel employees etc. … it would be difficult to live in Thailand and not realize that this is beginning to take on the appearance of a class struggle. A future along those lines is bad bad news for Thailand.
Last night’s incursion into the hospital was an escalation. It was also a huge propaganda victory for the forces opposed to the reds. If they lose the sympathy of their supporters then the game is up. Someone commented recently that this is a post modern revolt. Whatever that means it does seem that the narrative of blame is based on comparatively small number of events and casualties. At the moment those events are mostly contained in one location. And the people in that location are beginning to feel the strain.
I am sympathetic to the reds. And I am unsympathetic to the people who believe in their own superiority and support organizations like the PAD. It’s rare that I meet a member of Thailand’s elite who possesses a conscience. There is a real dog eat dog attitude on the part of the people who run this country and they have nothing but contempt for those people they regard as their inferiors and whose labour they so thoroughly exploit. They do however, along with unaccountable power, bring to their side of the conflict greater experience, legal knowledge and political expertise.
The reds, negotiating from a weaker position, made demands that are quite limited. We all can agree that it’s clear that the reasons that their demands are being rejected are budget related greed, military fear of losing authority and institutional fear of democracy producing a result that they don’t like (election fraud having a role here). All this talk of Thaksin’s return seems to me a smokescreen to hide the real issues. If the budget money is disbursed and the new military leadership ensconced then the government has already graciously conceded that an election would then be possible. Of course this government has already promised many reforms and then changed its views at a later date and other events might intervene that would make such an election impossible anyway.
You can argue that there a thugs, corrupt politicians and authoritarian impulses on both sides of this conflict. You can argue that all Thailand’s problems stem from one side’s militancy and not the other. What I don’t think can be denied is that the exploited workers of Thailand have now been empowered and the elite rentier class that normally runs the country are using every trick they know to keep them down where they formally belonged. The elites of modern democracies in developed countries have figured out how to buy off sufficient members of the exploited by giving them the illusion of property ownership through debt or by reluctantly introducing social programs to improve the welfare of ordinary people. I am sure that the Democrat party policies, given time, are intended to work the same magic in Thailand. The reds know therefore that while they have the initiative, it will not remain theirs for very long. They have to work to deadlines just like the government … As no side looks like backing down that, almost inevitably means escalation by the Reds, and repression by the government. And all the recent talk of civil war is surely a sign that both sides recognize now that the conflict is no longer confined to the site of the demonstration.
All that said, I believe that if the government shows patience and forbearance it can wait this out. If the Red numbers at the demonstration dwindle sufficiently and the dispersal can be accomplished with minimum force then all that is necessary to deactivate the potential for civil conflict is the arrest or buying off of the opposition leadership and the strengthening of the government social programs to alleviate suffering. The situation would then stabilize in favor of the existing dispensation for a number of years. Of course the reds must realize this and know it’s an all or nothing situation too.
Frankly I think Suu Kyi’s reported comments summed the whole thing up. Of course, Dan, perhaps she was being paid by Thaksin too?
(BD: You just recaptured the Comment of the Day trophy Jaded! Agree with you, mostly. And who would refute Suu Kyi. All we’re all trying to find is a compromise most people can live with. Not all, that’s not possible. The current hostile action leads us away from anything remotely related to something most people can live with. Only some. And that’s not good enough.)
Economist article page two, a comment by Bangkok Orange. Best thing I have read from any online source. You should reproduce it!
I’ve noticed in the last few weeks my Facebook has been filled by Thais expressing their opinions of the situation (in Thai). I’ve also browsed the Thai-language forums and YouTube comments with similar opinions.
The comments I see are highly derogatory against the red shirts, filled with wishes of gratuitous violence against them. They are repeatedly compared to water buffalos, employers brag that they’ll never hire someone from Isaan, and generally comment after comment that’ll make the KKK and neo-Nazis proud. Most seem to believe everything the government tells them without question. Intelligent debate is hard to find. Based on my findings of what appears to be deep-rooted hatred, the people in Bangkok aren’t the smiling Thais we think we know!
You won’t find much of any pro-UDD commentary, and when you do it’ll be an attempt to argue their position (valid or not, its an attempt).
As for English speaking Thais, they’ll tell you how these ‘riots’ are inconveniencing law abiding citizens. How its hurting business on Silom and Siam Square. How people can’t just enjoy their time at the mall or go shopping. They say the farmers are lazy, uneducated and should work for a living. (To me it just comes off as both arrogance and ignorance)
I remember my days in Bangkok before the UDD existed, and although my Thai at the time was crude, I definitely picked up on the hi-so lo-so class division quite quickly. This isn’t new.
I do agree that they (the UDD) are vastly uneducated, many seem brainwashed, many worship Thaksin, some are fairly violent, and few if any understand what democracy is. But that doesn’t make their grievances any less valid, or that their demands wouldn’t result in a democracy. In fact, most Thais of all colors of all classes don’t understand the basic tenants of democracy. Many are entirely unaware of the imposed media censorship or the strong bias found within the media, and believe everything they see on TV.
And if Thai history teaches us anything, whats going on right now doesn’t really matter. The next coup will just nullify any positive results that potentially come out of this conflict. With a 3.4 year average coup cycle, don’t act so surprised!
Reds have gone beyond the point of compromise. To re-enter the society most of their leadership must be locked away before the government can sit down and negotiate anything, and I bet red heroes won’t make that sacrifice.
On another note, Chechen separatists took at least two hospitals as hostages, the hero of the first raid was made their Supreme Commander when they got de facto independence from Russia.
During the second war, under Putin, the West screamed at Russians to negotiate politically while the Chechens took a second hospital hostage.
It wasn’t until 9/11 that the West realized that this kind of guys are beyond negotiations.
Back to reds.
To threaten the country with civil war over elections timeline is insane, if elections is all they really need, as many of their supporters believe.
I have no idea how rank and file reds evaluate their options: “Elections in December, or even next year, or a civil war? Lemme think about it – elections in December, or a civil war now?”
Anyone who buys into this rhetoric is just mad, and anyone who propagates it should be jailed.
Dan, you should be pleased your site isn’t inundated with the monosyllabic knuckle dragging anti-red ramblings found on TV. People posting here at least have insight and intelligence, both pro and anti red, and the language used displays this.
It is interesting that the divide in Thai society is equally in the expat society as well, we all love a team to barrack for I suppose.
My ex-wife loved the anti-drug crusade and it did work, hate it if you will, no doubt scores were settled but the drug trade reduced, perhaps you don’t have kids?
Taksin did both good and bad, many before did bad only, that is why he is still liked. Agree the red agenda is somewhat shallow, also doubt Taksin would return to politics, probably just looking for face saving.
Dr. Weng was very interesting, now go and grill a government spokesman and see what it gets you, be careful though, the question you may want to ask may see you in jail. Therein lies the difference.
(BD: Abhisit’s latest interviews with CNN & BBC clearly had no arranged questions, so at least Abhisit is not afraid of getting tough questions.)
Are you seriously saying that ordinary Thais should be silent and say nothing against these selfish bullies at all, despite their suffering at the hands of these moronic rednecks? Being poor doesn’t permit them to behave like inconsiderate douchebags. Some of their actions should be universally condemned, such as the latest incident in which they raided the hospital, resulting in its temporary closure and the evacuation of patients. Surely you cannot think that this kind of behavior has the remotest justification, despite the reds’ “grievances”? See the pictures of the consequences of the raid yesterday here:
http://www.pantip.com/cafe/chalermthai/topic/A9192681/A9192681.html
Oneditorial, your post is fairly representative of the anti-UDD rhetoric I see. If you were a protester and I called your mom a douchebag, would that convince you to go home?
That said, the link you posted is slightly mis-representative of the situation. The hospital wasn’t closed. Bangkok Post reports that patients were allowed to change buildings on a volunteer basis. 600 remained, 1,000 moved.
And remember it was Chula doctors that declared they wouldn’t treat police during the PAD riots. I suspect due to bias they aren’t communicating in a positive manner with the UDD, worsening the misunderstandings.
(And yes, I agree hospitals should be kept neutral ground based on a doctor’s oath.)
It’s a simple question for all Thais to face …
Do you want to continue to be ruled by the military with 700 generals heavily involved in legal and illegal business. Their power secured by the fiction of protection of the monarchy and massive wealth and influence links with all the important economic structures in Thailand?
or
Do you want to be able, by regular free and fair elections, to choose your members of parliament who will form a government. In the term of each government they will have your authority to control the military and all other agencies and spend your money in building Thailand. If the government does not please you then you can vote for someone else at the next election
The reds want the second, democratic elected government option.
Which do you choose?
Not sure why people keep bringing up the issue of a few Chula doctors having refused some time back ago to treat police in uniform (these handful of doctors asked the police change into plain clothes first before getting treatment), since the people mainly suffered by the red shirt raid are the patients.
Also the red leadership claiming that Payap leading the raid was done without consent of the red leaders is clearly untrue since on that same evening prior to the incursion, Jatuporn gave a press briefing with Payap and Weng sitting besides him, and during that press briefing he ordered Payap to raid the hospital. This was recorded by the media, see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA1dFX8-ak
I will carry on calling them what they are, unless they stop behaving like inconsiderate douchebags and I am not going to take it back. The fact that patients had to be moved away because of this selfish act is still inexcusable. Maybe it is OK to behave like this where you come from? Then again, I forgot that they are protected species and people are not allowed to criticiue these rednecks’ actions as they are fighting for their version of “democracy.” To some foreigners – who really have little idea of what’s really going on – as long as they do so in the name of this ideology, they can do whatever they like; never mind the fact that patients had to be moved to an un-equipped building, like the baby who has upper airway obstruction disease and needs surgery. It is hypocritical that you don’t want to hear negative comments about the reds from other Thais who have been putting up with the UDD’s self-interested activity for weeks. Decent people who make a living without causing trouble to anybody or society should have the right to vent their anger too. Only mad people would smile when their livelihood has been ruined by a mob of thugs who have no respect for the law. I cannot keep on feeling sorry for people who are less fortunate when they carry on behaving unreasonably. If they want to be well-off economically and socially, they need to work harder. Look at the Thai-Chinese for example, their ancestors moved to Thailand with nothing, but they got off their backsides and worked until they became very rich. No one is preventing anybody from creating their own fortune in Thailand. Instead of complaining about being poor, these people should adopt a practical approach with their lives. On a last note, the media in Thailand is full of propaganda from all parties involved in this political fiasco, including TV, the PAD and the UDD and so on.
Oneditorial, you misunderstand me. What I meant was that name calling is childish and will only inflame the situation. It shows that decisions were made based on emotional reaction and not well thought out reason.
That said, you brought up the ‘they are lazy’ claim. You accuse them of being lazy because they are poor. But in the economics of farming, the system works to their disadvantage. The wealth from farm products goes to the distributors and retailers, such as CP. The office worker, out of the sun, awake from the snakes, in the air-condition and sitting on his chair the whole day probably works fewer hours than a farmer. But the economics of the situation makes them a lot more money.
And the Chinese argument? Most of the Chinese moved to Thailand 50 to 100 years ago. The Chinese you refer to are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation – the argument is irrelevant. The Chinese are not farmers, they typically open retail stores.
As for them being uneducated … the education budget as decided by the central government greatly disadvantages the Isaan region. And do you think a farmer has the money to send his children to a university in Bangkok? It’s really a chicken and egg problem.
It is the responsibility of a government to help its citizens come out of poverty. I’m not talking about free money handouts, I’m talking about economic development programs, education programs, better health systems, micro-grants, etc. Farmers didn’t get this help until Thaksin. If you read about the few laws “passed” by the Democrats meant to benefit the farmers, and if you have even a basic understanding of the laws of economics, you’ll see that the Democrats aren’t interested in helping them out of poverty. I’m very much under the impression the Democrats aren’t even aware of why farmers are dirt poor.
Do you know why Thai people love the king so much? It’s because he focused a good ~20+ years of his life implementing development and “self-sufficiency” programs to help Thai citizens out of poverty. If the Democrat party wants to change the minds of the UDD, Abhisit only needs to follow Nai Luangs lead. Resolve, not ignore, their grievances, and sincerely attempt to resolve them, and they will go home.
Point being, let’s move past the name calling and finger pointing, and work towards a solution that benefits everyone.
So what should we call people who raid a hospital where there are a lot of sick people? Freedom fighters or maybe terrorists? It is not enough that they have been disrupting the public’s day to day business, now they have resorted to preventing a hospital from functioning. Because of this unjust and deliberate action, I will continue to call them what they are: inconsiderate douchebags.
I see nobody preventing them from looking for another job if they think working in the farming business is not rewarding enough. The government created ample projects and opportunities to encourage people to work. Instead of working, they have chosen the easy option of borrowing money and now expect other people to sort out their debts for them. The money would, of course, come from the taxes paid by those who DO work, but I doubt that these poor people understand that since it is unlikely they’ve ever paid any. People who work in air-conditioned offices, sitting on their chairs should not need to apologise for what they do. They have created their own opportunities and they should enjoy what they have achieved. The Thai-Chinese argument is very germane to this discussion. It helps to explain the success of these people despite there being no one to help them out. The current generation have inherited the work ethic from their ancestors. A number of my friends came from poor families; their parents are farmers, and they managed to attend the same university as me in Thailand. It is not rocket science to understand that they have the same opportunity for sucesss as other people as long as they are prepared to work hard enough.
Yes, I know because I am Thai.
Nobody ignores the grievances of these unfortunate rednecks, but they just cannot expect to have something for nothing and bully other people into doing whatever they want. The actions of this arrogant, lawless mob have discredited the goals of the reds.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry! Oneditorial, you are obviously one of those closer to the sky than the earth in Thailand:
Nattawut Saikua, December 2008
The violence, threats, intimidation and almost daily abuse of the democratic and human rights of others dont just undermine the stated red cases of more equality, opportunity and democracy but they actually set it back. In there lies the irony. The movement has evolved into something which is the antithesis of what it purports to want. The movements actions are completely out of line with its stated demands. History shows us that this is not necessarily unexpected.
To where now? Were the democratic and human rights of anyone ever bettered by trampling on the democratic and human rights of others?
Great interview pal! With the right questions asked which matter now! Anything else is utopia and dreamland theory.
Just think next step what will happen after next rigged elections? Back to minus square one for sure, with the bigger evil at the helm again.
Change has to come within or from a clean source, but for sure not with those fake, “more” corrupt and brutal “soap opera” actors/movement.
Dr. Weng lost in space it seems …
“Inconsiderate douchebag” is redundant. Who here has ever met a considerate, pleasant douchebag?
Nice to see you back commenting Occasional Poster (presumably the same one who previously was a “regular” poster at Pundit’s site?)
Interesting question you have raised – where to now?
I would be interested to hear your opinions, together with Dan’s.
Personally, I think the writing has been on the wall for a long time now – certain privileged sections of Thai society have failed to heed the warnings that they need to modify their old ways, and start to respect the will on the people.
Seemingly, they think they can again return to the status quo once things settle down.
However, I think things have come too far for that – this is not the first attempt at democracy for Thailand, and if it fails this time (even using Thaksin’s money & popularity?) and if the reform is still not offered voluntarily, then I can only see more violence.
It’s most likely form will be through a guerilla war type effort similar to the southern insurgency, but not confined only to the regions.
Abhisit has dug his hole (or had it dug for him), so the only chance of a miracle on the horizon is the possible dissolution of the Democrat Party – if that happens it might be a sign that the warnings have indeed been heeded, and there would then be a chance that Thailand could slowly progress to democracy (it still won’t be easy, but it would be a start).
First priority for the new parliament should be constitutional reform, including a binding deterrent against future military coups – only thing I can think of is automatic death penalty for the leaders, no if, no buts!
(it’s hard for me to write such a thing, being a pacifist who abhors the death penalty – perhaps the carrot can be an amnesty for all sides up to date, as its very hard to see fair justice being dealt to all wrongdoers under the current structure)
The question still arises, what to do with Thaksin? – he’s obviously too divisive a figure to return to politics, so I’d find the minimum he would settle for and give it too him, with some sort of suspended jail sentence to keep him from causing any trouble.
Of course this is all just conjecture, and let’s hope the wise heads of Thailand can do much better than what I can come up with.
Yes hello Hobby. You seem to have had a mild red epiphany since the Pundit days.
I think it will take a better man than me to suggest how the insanity ends and ends in a way that actually benefits society. Right now every party in parliament and every colour movment is utterly discredited and unacceptable to a large portion of the population so as they are a part of the problem and not part of the solution there is no answer from any of them, which presents a bit of a problem really.
For an election to have any chance of doing anything than changing which facist group controls power you would first have to get everyone to sign onto the rules and agree to accept the outcome, which comes back to agreeing the rules first, whcih is a bit of a problem really as they arent going to agree
Coups and imposed governments are also no longer de rigeur in Thai higher echelons.
So I guess it comes down to a horrible fight to the death between groups led by people not worth dying for. Unless of course people come to their senses but current actions actions suggest leaders on all sides (never bought in to only two sides) are doign their best to become more extreme and irrational while pumping the emotions of utter hatred amongst their brain washed client groups. Not a very good sign really.
The positive side is it is very difficult to meet a single person in the country who doesnt want it all over and their lives to get back to normal unless you choose to hang out with the colour coded groups. Sadly the average person on the street has no involvement or say in this.
The only idea I have ever had is a constitution musty be accepted by majority in every region and can only be ammended by majority in every region. That would force politicos to work together and propose soemthing that would be acceptable to all. The no winner scenario.
Hobby, I don’t know whether you’re Thai or not – I suspect not. That being so, I’m sure that oneditorial would know more about the opportunities available to Thais in Thailand than you do.
While I have no doubt that the reds face injustices that need to be addressed, it seems to me that there is more than a little romanticizing of their “just cause” going on here.
Their behavior, characterized by the outrageous and unjustifiable storming of Chulalongkorn Hospital yesterday, serves only to discredit them. In relation to yesterday’s incident, the reds’ leaders can apologize and seek to distance themselves as much as they want, but it’s too late: the damage has been done.
It’s difficult to see a solution. Abhisit is right, elections now would not solve anything. If the reds have a majority, it would result in the re-emergence of the PAD. If the reds were to lose, then their objectives will have been for nothing and if they’re as determined as they seem, they will continue their rioting. A negotiated political settlement is required, but with the entrenched positions of all, this doesn’t look likely right now.
In business, whenever you come out with a new product or sign a new deal, you need to make sure it is acceptable to all “stake holders.” Meaning the agreement must work for all sides, or it’ll fail. If just one side disagrees, we get the circus that we have now.
Let say, hypothetically, that the grievances I mentioned earlier are to be solved as the agreement. And no dissolving of parliament and fresh elections.
Now let’s looks at the sides:
Military – in no way does it lose power or control, so they’ll be OK with it.
PAD – doesn’t hurt monarchy, doesn’t benefit Thaksin, doesn’t increase corruption, so they’ll be OK with it.
Democrats – they take all the credit, boosts their chances of winning next election, so they’ll be OK with it.
UDD – enough said.
This doesn’t resolve the deeper issues, but it’d resolve the current crises. Just an example that’ll never be read by anyone with influence …
I’m not Thai, but I’m pretty sure I know as much (if not more) about opportunities in Thailand as a privileged hi-so type does.
Not saying that Oneditorial is privileged, but judging by his/her comment that I quoted above I’d guess he/she has had much more advantage than the average Isaan son or daughter. (Surely you have noticed that some Thai’s seem to live in the stratosphere, a long way from the earth?)
Regarding your other comments, I think you give way to much credence to the PAD – they started out against corruption, but now they are just against democracy.
Hmmm, that scripted speech by Nattawut in Dec. 2008 is indeed impressive and well rehearsed, but too bad he’s back to his low, natural self these days, e.g. what he said at Rajaprasong Intersection rally stage on April 8:
Source:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/04/30/thailand-end-street-battles-bangkok
Great interview Dan … Dr. Weng really should step down as a leader of the red movement. His ramblings on sending 200 red shirts to the hospital on Thursday because someone saw military personnel hiding there were just too much. Screwing around with a hospital that treats many rural poor and urban poor was bad form and probably just a hint of what’s to come.
Thaksin probably walks around calling Dr. Weng mini me.
The Chula story sickens.
The hospital coexisted with the red rally for some weeks, in-patient and out-patient services as normal.
There were statements a few days before that there was shooting at the rally from the 5th floor of a Chula building and the building is placed with an excellent view and access to the rally stage and site generally.
But only barbarians and heathens would launch an attack from a hospital … so the red leaders left the hospital alone.
Then the hospital administration started moving patients out without announcement or apparent reason, then some soldiers were spotted.
The reds’ paranoia was strained, they had to do something, so they searched and they and witnesses saw soldiers running away.
Then the media claimed that patients were being moved because of the reds.
(BD: With due respect, the true character of the movement was shown. Disrespect for what’s important to others.)
And the reds gave in, apologized and cleared space for the hospital and the government agreed no reds, no soldiers.
Now there are no patients and the soldiers have moved in ready for their assault on the red rally.
The cunning military-controlled government helped by the gullible media have won this move.
No doubt drinks and celebrations at 11th Infantry.
Bangkok Post reports that 100 police officers will be stationed inside the hospital to “prevent UDD or soldiers from using it.” But that’s a lame excuse, as the police will now use it for their advantage.
Bangkok Post also reports that *all* patients have been removed from the hospital, and now they say only 100 red shirts had ever entered (not 200).
Truth is becoming the untruth.
(BD: It’s the government’s overdue duty to provide security. And doesn’t make any difference if a single or a thousand reds raid the hospital.)
The hospital assault is impossible to excuse. It is also a hideous PR own goal. It wasn’t created or massaged by the government. Quite simply they didn’t need to. Have any of you making wild and wacky claims about this event sat down over a beer with people who a few months ago were broadly sympathetic, but not card carrying members or school indoctrinated sound bite repeaters, with the red shirts and heard what they say now? I think not if you are apologising or excusing this action away. And the police don’t fare much better.
Sadly a movement that at one point did have some credibility in fighting for democratic reform, fairness and rights has degenerated into something that any pro-democracy or pro-rights movement would be fighting against. This is the ultimate irony although by no means unique in history. In fact histroy would suggest this would happen particularly but by no means limited to history of color-coded movements in recent world history.
The interview I noticed revealed Weng even dodging the issue of EJK and even labelling those killed as drug dealers when they didn’t get a trial. What has come of the man. Didn’t he use to believe in protecting human rights? I also stand amazed at his blase generalization on mafia. I really wonder if the mafias of Chiang Mai, Udon Thani, Khon Kaen, parts of Korat, Nakhom Pathom etc. etc. really hate Thaksin. If so why would they be mixed up with a party and movement he backs? Still I digress.
However, it is sad day that one such as Weng who once seemed to have principles would now be willing to turf them overboard at the first opportunity of some power or a chance to relive some revolutionary days that went a bit awry in internal splits a few decades ago. Sometimes it is necessary for people to stand back and reassess their role and actions in things but this can be difficult when so caught up in things although in the case of Weng it would seem particularly relevent. Can he actually in the cold light of day say what he is doing now is in line with ideals and principles he held in his earlier life?
Right now where can the Thai poor look for those who will stick up for them? Or maybe it is a lesson that the oppressed wprld over learn. You cannot rely on those elites parachuted in to stand up for you. You have to find leaders from among yourselves if you want to fight for true change. Sadly it seems the rural poor of Thailand either haven’t learned this lesson yet or are too oppressed by the local mafia and provincail patronage systems so well represented in the PT party and red hierarchy to do anything.
OP: I think you know the oppression is not just by the local mafia & provincial patronage systems, and are being dinengenuous in ignoring that fact (or has the systematic propaganda, which I call the ‘charade’, really got you sucked in too?)
My position is that you have to start somewhere, and I can see no proper starting point other than respecting the will of the people.
Have an election – if, next time, the yellows/PAD/red/UDD don’t respect the will of the people, then they should be locked up each time they break the law – draw a line in the sand, have an election, follow rule of law – we can already see what the alternative is.
Occassional Poster
I wonder if anyone can be bothered trying to understand anything after your first two sentences …
Obviously you want to push the government story … I seem to remember you were also strident about the Rohingyas and other issues … where Abhisit also had the unenviable task of providing cover stories for foolish and criminal military actions in violation of Thai and international laws.
The rest of what you wrote I cannot understand … are there any points you are trying to make that we should take notice of?
Came across this video of the red shirts terrorizing Vachira Hospital’s emergency ward on April 11. You can hear some nurses screaming “This is a hospital! This is a hospital!,” desperately trying to bring some sense into them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf3Ii_Qm-1o
Surie, it was the day when they went into hospitals and snatched corpses for their parade.
They need dead bodies, now it’s the only reason for their existence.
Step back and look around – they stopped talking politics weeks ago, they don’t have any political strategies anymore, they only talk about war and crackdown.
Their only strategy is to sacrifice as many reds as possible so the public sentiment somehow turns against the government and Abhisit is forced to step down.
This is their only path to freedom (and “democracy”).
Short of that, the government is not going to negotiate, much less resign, until their leaders are arrested and put in jail.
Red leaders can’t have that, so they keep their faithful in place, hoping the government kills enough of them for the leaders to wriggle their way out.
As for Nattawut’s “stare at the sky” speech – tens of millions of Thais didn’t just stand there but went out and did something about it. Upward mobility is undeniable here, with exploding ranks of middle class.
Nattawut just made a poetic “us and them” hate speech.
Surie and StanG, you guys are a bit too fanatic. That video doesn’t show any form of terrorism. The military shoots dead 20 UDD civilians, injuring 500 more, and yet you say entering a hospital is the crime against humanity? Do you choose to ignore any crime that supports only your political beliefs?
Are you familiar with Nelson Mandela? He won a Nobel prize for helping end the Apartheid. His followers were very much poor and uneducated. He had valid grievances, and his demands very much resulted in a true democracy for all. But he was also a terrorist (in the true meaning) that used bombings and targeted killings to get his way.
My point is, there are more sides to the story.
(No, I’m not pro-red, I just like a balanced argument)
(BD: Nelson Mandela’s fight was backed by the international community and powerful lobbies, not the reds’.)
StanG, it’s easy to say people can improve their lives by working harder, easy because it’s almost always true. But that sidesteps the huge inequalities that exist in this country, and the question of why people should go on accepting them.
“If I am not for myself then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?”
Dan gets to the point with his editorial comment:
We need to look at why that is so – why does the “official” international community and so many NGOs/human rights groups go along with the charade of the noble lie?
Is it mere ignorance, self-preservation, or are they complicit in the plunder?
Well I guess the international community has strong reservations about the legitimacy of the reds’ claims and doesn’t necessarily support a pseudo-peaceful protest masqueraded as democracy.
The timing of the red protest exposes deeper motives. The prime ministers Samak, Somchai and Abhisit were all elected following the same parliamentary procedures legitimized by a participating, not boycotting opposition.
So why now. Not a mystery if you think it through. The international community is well aware of the deeper motives and hidden agendas.
Hey even the reds recognized Abhisit as the legitimate prime minister until February’s Supreme Court ruling on Thaksin.
BangkokDan
Recognized Abhisit’s legitimacy? What was April 2009 about?
PS: I understand why you chose to ingore the main point of my question.
(BD: Agree, should read Thaksin nominees in parliament recognized Abhisit’s legitimacy.)
I don’t think the international community understands, or even cares, exactly what this circus is all about. Anyone who tries to help is likely to get politically burned, so it’s probably in their own best interests to stay out of it. Whether its best for Thailand or not is another issue. That Abhisit and Kasit continually insist on no foreign intervention, and make speeches about ‘bloody terrorists,’ shows they are afraid of the international opinion.
As for Abhisit being legitimate? Thaksin was legitimate, but was removed by a military coup. The generals installed a law in the new constitution to allow the EC to ban entire parties if just a single politician was found to have bought a vote.
Thaksin’s party was legitimate, but was completely banned from politics for five years based on that new law. The only two witnesses in that case came forward last year saying they were bribed to testify against TRT. Samak was legitimate, but was removed because he cooked on TV. Somchai was legitimate, but his entire party was banned from politics for five years, again based on the new law. It’s very hard for me to accept a parliamentary vote as valid and fair when all key opposition politicians are banned from voting.
The Democrats also broke the EC law – but are they banned? No. The law was meant to only get rid of the opposition.
And don’t forget, Abhisit didn’t win until Newins party was bribed key government positions. And you say only Thaksin buys votes and puts friends in power? Ha! The PAD continually suggest the people of Isaan shouldn’t even be allowed to vote!
Legitimate or not, the UDD feels the Democrats played dirty and that their votes were repeatedly stolen from them. And if the UDD wins the next election, whenever that’ll be, the PAD aren’t just going to twiddle their thumbs. History says they’ll find a way to deny the UDD vote yet again – meaning all democratic routes have been denied. What you see is the UDD acting in desperation.
You can’t just beat a buffalo forever and expect it to only smile back at you.
Good postings. Thank you all expats who genuinely take interest in our screwed up and warped politics. Yes. BD the generals are the culprits who want to protect their status quo. Abhisit is just a puppet. And Thaksin was too stupid to mess with the generals.
(BD: All I’m saying since the hour zero of the latest red protest: the end doesn’t justify those violent anti-democratic means.)
It is not yet clear that all red victims were killed by soldiers on that day. Sure soldiers were shooting but there were also about a dozen victims of sniper fire that brought absolutely no advantage to the government, I might add.
Regardless, in no way it excuses reds breaking into hospitals and snatching corpses for their PR purposes.
There are rumors they closed their Panpha site shortly after because it was haunted by ghosts of their “comrades”, apparently not too happy with sacrifices they had to make. Thais take these things seriously.
In my previous post I thought I said “the only way” too many times. Apparently not, so I repeat – the only red strategy at the moment is to sacrifice as many lives as possible, and the goal is not democracy or double standards, but escaping arrest warrants and jail time for the leaders.
Earlier on one govt intelligence source said the acceptable level for the red side is 2,000.
At this point the government hesitates to initiate the crackdown to save these lives, the reds side yearns for it.
Inequality problem cannot be solved simply by holding another elections under “military” constitution. Abhisit is about to unveil his roadmap to democracy while reds have stopped talking about it weeks ago.
They only want bloodshed.
[...] Dr. Weng Talks: No Thaksin Protector? – Absolutely Bangkok [...]
Mr Abhisit just unveiled his roadmap. I agree with everything he said, and I really think this roadmap is a good way forward:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/05/03/politics/PM-announces-roadmap-sets-election-on-Nov-14-30128504.html
That said, it will be quite hard to reign in on the heavily biased media – they won’t obey him, and he has no way to enforce it. His party also buried the independent investigation report after the PAD protests, leaving me to not trust this one.
(BD: Don’t hear this “heavily biased media” to be in uproar.)