Comments on: Making Good Use Of The Poor http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/ Welcome to Bangkok Thailand, Airport, Politics, Food, Nightlife and Thai Culture of the Big Mango! Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:43:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: gohmer http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11388 gohmer Sun, 18 Apr 2010 14:10:33 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11388 All countries in the world, and for all of world history, have used the same exact arguments about why not to give the under-class the right to vote - they are naive, uneducated, their vote will be bought, they don't care about politics, etc, etc, etc. This has been even been used in the U.S. to keep women and blacks from voting, in South Africa the same, and pretty much every other country in the world at one point in time or another. All of this has some legitimacy, but at the end of the day, a country that does not have its people chose its leaders (despite how bad they may be) is a dictatorship and no dictatorship in world history has created a quality life for its masses, only it elites. These people deserve the right to vote and decide who leads them. If they choose incorrectly, then the next election they correct their mistake. Just like America did when we decided the Bush way was the wrong way and America made a historic statement by being the first developed country in the world to elect a minority as its leader. We all make mistakes, are taken on one ride or two down a bad path, and are occasionally fooled, but not always. Let the red shirts bring Thaksin back, let them elect him, that's what might have to happen for Thailand to develop into a stable democracy. You can't keep a child from falling down when they are first learning to walk. If I am incorrect in this analysis, name the country that has not vote, run by the military that isn't totally messed up economically and socially. All countries in the world, and for all of world history, have used the same exact arguments about why not to give the under-class the right to vote – they are naive, uneducated, their vote will be bought, they don’t care about politics, etc, etc, etc. This has been even been used in the U.S. to keep women and blacks from voting, in South Africa the same, and pretty much every other country in the world at one point in time or another.

All of this has some legitimacy, but at the end of the day, a country that does not have its people chose its leaders (despite how bad they may be) is a dictatorship and no dictatorship in world history has created a quality life for its masses, only it elites.

These people deserve the right to vote and decide who leads them. If they choose incorrectly, then the next election they correct their mistake. Just like America did when we decided the Bush way was the wrong way and America made a historic statement by being the first developed country in the world to elect a minority as its leader. We all make mistakes, are taken on one ride or two down a bad path, and are occasionally fooled, but not always.

Let the red shirts bring Thaksin back, let them elect him, that’s what might have to happen for Thailand to develop into a stable democracy. You can’t keep a child from falling down when they are first learning to walk.

If I am incorrect in this analysis, name the country that has not vote, run by the military that isn’t totally messed up economically and socially.

]]> By: Leopold http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11279 Leopold Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:56:57 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11279 @ David Brown People like to talk as if the 1997 constitution was completely flawless. It can certainly be argued as a more democratic constitution, but it does not automatically give a perfect and functioning democracy. While I somewhat do not understand you statement that "elections based on the 1997 constitution involved all people of Thailand voting," I feel obliged to remind you that people without a bachelor degree cannot stand in a general election under the 1997 constitution. Your average Somchai with primary education can forget about being a representative for his own people even if he has worked for them almost all his life. The best he could do within that democratic process was to be a local canvasser for provincial feudal lords. The 2007 constitution only requires five years of any education. Also, under the 1997 constitution, the Democrats would have gained a lot more party-list seats. But, I'm also not arguing that 2007 version is more democratic or more workable. For one thing, the Map Ta Phut impasse serves as an example of the irresponsibility of the drafters. This is where I am in agreement with the red shirt elites. (Yes, "phrai" do have elites of their own.) A lot of urban upper middle class red shirts think that too much rights have been given to the people. So, I'm all for amending the constitution if it is to evolve. @ Hobby I think you posted these questions at Bangkok Pundit as well, so I'm gonna guess they are not rhetorical and that you really want answers. 1. Yes, and I do see hypocrisies from the red shirts and PTP as well. This comment being too long, let's just say the political stalemate is about the same as what has happened in the past. We're living in a parallel universe where everyone switched their roles, except you if I recall correctly. :) 2. Of course, it's preferable. Still, coup happened, and we all want to turn back time, and "we" being everyone is the problem. 3. Not necessarily. @ David Brown

People like to talk as if the 1997 constitution was completely flawless. It can certainly be argued as a more democratic constitution, but it does not automatically give a perfect and functioning democracy.

While I somewhat do not understand you statement that “elections based on the 1997 constitution involved all people of Thailand voting,” I feel obliged to remind you that people without a bachelor degree cannot stand in a general election under the 1997 constitution. Your average Somchai with primary education can forget about being a representative for his own people even if he has worked for them almost all his life. The best he could do within that democratic process was to be a local canvasser for provincial feudal lords.

The 2007 constitution only requires five years of any education.

Also, under the 1997 constitution, the Democrats would have gained a lot more party-list seats.

But, I’m also not arguing that 2007 version is more democratic or more workable. For one thing, the Map Ta Phut impasse serves as an example of the irresponsibility of the drafters. This is where I am in agreement with the red shirt elites. (Yes, “phrai” do have elites of their own.) A lot of urban upper middle class red shirts think that too much rights have been given to the people.

So, I’m all for amending the constitution if it is to evolve.

@ Hobby

I think you posted these questions at Bangkok Pundit as well, so I’m gonna guess they are not rhetorical and that you really want answers.

1. Yes, and I do see hypocrisies from the red shirts and PTP as well. This comment being too long, let’s just say the political stalemate is about the same as what has happened in the past. We’re living in a parallel universe where everyone switched their roles, except you if I recall correctly. :)

2. Of course, it’s preferable. Still, coup happened, and we all want to turn back time, and “we” being everyone is the problem.

3. Not necessarily.

]]> By: Oneditorial http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11278 Oneditorial Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:54:56 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11278 I think I deserve to be labelled as one of the Thai people who used to be silent about this ongoing political fiasco, though I wear neither red nor yellow. Accordingly I am, in a small way, partly responsible for the current Thai political situation. I don't think I have the right to be critical of the Reds and I shouldn't have been, as at least, unlike me, they chose to vote in the election, albeit their ignorance knows no bounds. I should not have expected much maturity or common sense from these people about who they want to run the country. When the next election takes place, I will definitely participate. I will also support the reds' fight for equality in Thai society as long as their aim is genuine; not because they are doing it for the sake of one individual. That's why their leaders are not prepared to go along with Abhisit's proposal which is reasoned and should be acceptable. I think the government deserves respect for its handling of the situation by trying to sort this problem out around the negotiating table as well as being patient with this disruptive nuisance. I feel for many of the Reds as they are oblivious to the fact that they are being used as pawns. I disliked the coup and was unhappy with the PAD's seizing the airport. Thaksin shoud have been removed via the democratic system. However, the man thoroughly abused the entire system. He was a megalomaniac then and he still is. He feathered his own nest while he was in power. The verdict of the assets case is proof of how guilty he is. I see nothing wrong with Abhisit’s current stance. I think his strategy of doing all he can to maintain the support of the army is perfectly acceptable. If I was him, I would do the same. If the reds are genuine about their cause, it will not be difficult for them to disassociate themselves from the square-faced man who is currently on the run. I think I deserve to be labelled as one of the Thai people who used to be silent about this ongoing political fiasco, though I wear neither red nor yellow. Accordingly I am, in a small way, partly responsible for the current Thai political situation. I don’t think I have the right to be critical of the Reds and I shouldn’t have been, as at least, unlike me, they chose to vote in the election, albeit their ignorance knows no bounds. I should not have expected much maturity or common sense from these people about who they want to run the country. When the next election takes place, I will definitely participate. I will also support the reds’ fight for equality in Thai society as long as their aim is genuine; not because they are doing it for the sake of one individual. That’s why their leaders are not prepared to go along with Abhisit’s proposal which is reasoned and should be acceptable. I think the government deserves respect for its handling of the situation by trying to sort this problem out around the negotiating table as well as being patient with this disruptive nuisance. I feel for many of the Reds as they are oblivious to the fact that they are being used as pawns. I disliked the coup and was unhappy with the PAD’s seizing the airport. Thaksin shoud have been removed via the democratic system. However, the man thoroughly abused the entire system. He was a megalomaniac then and he still is. He feathered his own nest while he was in power. The verdict of the assets case is proof of how guilty he is. I see nothing wrong with Abhisit’s current stance. I think his strategy of doing all he can to maintain the support of the army is perfectly acceptable. If I was him, I would do the same. If the reds are genuine about their cause, it will not be difficult for them to disassociate themselves from the square-faced man who is currently on the run.

]]> By: Hobby http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11276 Hobby Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:34:53 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11276 BD: <blockquote>“Democracy” brought us into quite a mess under Takki. So we’ll have to see (again?) …)</blockquote> Don't you think its about time Thailand gave democracy a try? (I think you know what I mean, or were you only paying lip service to Federico and his book?) BD:

“Democracy” brought us into quite a mess under Takki. So we’ll have to see (again?) …)

Don’t you think its about time Thailand gave democracy a try?

(I think you know what I mean, or were you only paying lip service to Federico and his book?)

]]> By: David Brown http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11274 David Brown Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:25:19 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11274 Oneditorial ... old man ... <blockquote>"They represent a small minority of the electorate in Thailand. There are other Thai people too, don’t you know, perhaps the vast majority, who have so far remained silent and who just want to go about their daily lives in peace."</blockquote> Amazing delusion ... dreaming there is some mysterious silent majority ... Elections based on the 1997 constitution involved all people of Thailand voting. The Democrats, PAD and their military bosses want most of the population to be silent and for their votes to be ignored ... but the redshirts are the previously silent demanding they and all people in Thailand continue to be heard, regularly at every election! Or don't you want to listen? <em>(BD: "Democracy" brought us into quite a mess under Takki. So we'll have to see (again?) ...)</em> Oneditorial … old man …

“They represent a small minority of the electorate in Thailand. There are other Thai people too, don’t you know, perhaps the vast majority, who have so far remained silent and who just want to go about their daily lives in peace.”

Amazing delusion … dreaming there is some mysterious silent majority …

Elections based on the 1997 constitution involved all people of Thailand voting.

The Democrats, PAD and their military bosses want most of the population to be silent and for their votes to be ignored … but the redshirts are the previously silent demanding they and all people in Thailand continue to be heard, regularly at every election!

Or don’t you want to listen?

(BD: “Democracy” brought us into quite a mess under Takki. So we’ll have to see (again?) …)

]]> By: Hobby http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11272 Hobby Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:49:50 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11272 Thanks for the additional information Ordinary Reader. OneEditorial: - Do you see any hypocrisy in Abhisit's current stand when compared with the way he acted when his opposing PMs were being protested against? (Also any hypocrisy in the actions of the army boss in picking which PM he will support, and which PM he will recommend resign?) - Do you think removing an elected PM by military coup is preferable to removal by election? - Do you think anyone who is against a military coup is therefore pro-Thaksin? (including a red shirt) Thanks for the additional information Ordinary Reader.

OneEditorial:

- Do you see any hypocrisy in Abhisit’s current stand when compared with the way he acted when his opposing PMs were being protested against? (Also any hypocrisy in the actions of the army boss in picking which PM he will support, and which PM he will recommend resign?)

- Do you think removing an elected PM by military coup is preferable to removal by election?

- Do you think anyone who is against a military coup is therefore pro-Thaksin? (including a red shirt)

]]> By: David Brown http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11271 David Brown Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:44:42 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11271 Hi Ordinary ... Thanks for the four pillars ... and seemingly Prem thinks of himself as the same (or can control them all)? Hi Ordinary …

Thanks for the four pillars … and seemingly Prem thinks of himself as the same (or can control them all)?

]]> By: Oneditorial http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11270 Oneditorial Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:32:18 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11270 Baby, I think Abhisit offered to carry out a referendum on this issue. If I were in Abhisit's position, I would not give in to these people's demands either. I think it is a bit arrogant, self-serving and selfish of them to think that they can just defy the leader of the country and do whatever they want. What they are doing is a tad PAD-like, don't you think? I don't think any sane leader should acquiesce. The country does not belong to either the Reds or the Yellows. You have to bear in mind that they represent a small minority of the electorate in Thailand. There are other Thai people too, don't you know, perhaps the vast majority, who have so far remained silent and who just want to go about their daily lives in peace. Who do the Reds think they are to go around trying to boss people into doing whatever they want. If they think they have a valid argument, they should at least accept the results of a referendum or go back for the third round of negotiations offered by the Government. Truth is, they do not dare to have another round of talks as they know they were completely outclassed by Abhisit's side last time. Instead, they have chosen to carry on being a public nuisance on the streets and this will get them nowhere: it will just get on the nerves of ordinary Thai people who are already showing signs of losing patience. In the end, they will have to resort to more intense tactics and that will suit the Government just fine as the authorities will have the justification to disperse these people. Talk about desperation. Baby, I think Abhisit offered to carry out a referendum on this issue. If I were in Abhisit’s position, I would not give in to these people’s demands either. I think it is a bit arrogant, self-serving and selfish of them to think that they can just defy the leader of the country and do whatever they want. What they are doing is a tad PAD-like, don’t you think? I don’t think any sane leader should acquiesce. The country does not belong to either the Reds or the Yellows. You have to bear in mind that they represent a small minority of the electorate in Thailand. There are other Thai people too, don’t you know, perhaps the vast majority, who have so far remained silent and who just want to go about their daily lives in peace. Who do the Reds think they are to go around trying to boss people into doing whatever they want. If they think they have a valid argument, they should at least accept the results of a referendum or go back for the third round of negotiations offered by the Government. Truth is, they do not dare to have another round of talks as they know they were completely outclassed by Abhisit’s side last time. Instead, they have chosen to carry on being a public nuisance on the streets and this will get them nowhere: it will just get on the nerves of ordinary Thai people who are already showing signs of losing patience. In the end, they will have to resort to more intense tactics and that will suit the Government just fine as the authorities will have the justification to disperse these people. Talk about desperation.

]]> By: Ordinary reader http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11262 Ordinary reader Sun, 04 Apr 2010 03:12:18 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11262 Hobby, the military & judiciary are just two of the four pillars (in Thai called Si Sao) that support the current ammat elites. The other two are media (we need not discuss it because everyone knows how biased the mainstream media are, especially NBT) and the so-called independent agencies, such as the Election Commission. The DSI already submitted evidence on how the Democrats broke the law punishable by party dissolution with the illegal 258-million baht donation but the EC keeps dragging its feet by saying it needs more details. If this happens to a pro-Thaksin party, the EC would have acted promptly and dissolves such party. The four pillars or Si Sao happens to be the name of residence where Mr. Prem lives in the Thevet district. The four pillars look very strong and solid now but once they break down one by one, the entire ammat system will collapse. Hobby, the military & judiciary are just two of the four pillars (in Thai called Si Sao) that support the current ammat elites. The other two are media (we need not discuss it because everyone knows how biased the mainstream media are, especially NBT) and the so-called independent agencies, such as the Election Commission. The DSI already submitted evidence on how the Democrats broke the law punishable by party dissolution with the illegal 258-million baht donation but the EC keeps dragging its feet by saying it needs more details. If this happens to a pro-Thaksin party, the EC would have acted promptly and dissolves such party.

The four pillars or Si Sao happens to be the name of residence where Mr. Prem lives in the Thevet district. The four pillars look very strong and solid now but once they break down one by one, the entire ammat system will collapse.

]]> By: David Brown http://absolutelybangkok.com/making-good-use-of-the-poor/#comment-11253 David Brown Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:49:42 +0000 http://absolutelybangkok.com/?p=7791#comment-11253 Oneditorial The other question is more relevant ... Why is Abhisit requesting to wait nine months before dissolution? Who is calling his shots and what is their "hidden agenda"? He mentioned the budget and stabilizing the country. Does he mean satisfying the "needs" of the military to get their phenomenal, ludicrous demands for new high tech weapons systems whose purpose seems to be to achieve maximum corrupt payoffs in the government budget? And securing the planned elevation of crazy anti-Thaksin Gen Suchart(?) to military chief? So whose "hidden agenda" is more "important for the country"? Oneditorial

The other question is more relevant …

Why is Abhisit requesting to wait nine months before dissolution? Who is calling his shots and what is their “hidden agenda”?

He mentioned the budget and stabilizing the country.

Does he mean satisfying the “needs” of the military to get their phenomenal, ludicrous demands for new high tech weapons systems whose purpose seems to be to achieve maximum corrupt payoffs in the government budget?

And securing the planned elevation of crazy anti-Thaksin Gen Suchart(?) to military chief?

So whose “hidden agenda” is more “important for the country”?

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