Redder Than The Devil: Foreign Intervention Please

The red shirts, attempting to force Thailand’s new unelected government to dissolve the house for new elections, have a serious image problem. Their tactics look like a virtual carbon-copy of those used by the opposite yellow shirts. And not one of Thailand’s usually very talkative academics and representatives of the social and military elites openly supports a red version of the yellow mayhem.

Even though, put simply, the aims of the yellows and reds are virtually the same. They just they want to put their own people into office. Tit for tat and tat for tit. An Abhisit for a Somchai, a Pee Uan for a Pee Lek, while the elite continues to make history with deliberate inaction favoring the yellows and may up the ante with deliberate action against the reds.

Add the seemingly erratic, brutally calculating loyalties of coalition leaders … Thailand has become ungovernable because laws where not enforced when needed. Now it’s plain too late. Those who unhinged the constitution and due process are beaten at their own game. A Darwinian version of autocracy has taken over where even more pain is needed to destroy the old and make way for a new. Or what should the reds do?

By xeroxing the yellows they do themselves a great disservice. State your points, demonstrate some civilized anger. But insist on peaceful ways and patience. Sabotage only strengthens a doomed government. Rather sooner than later there will be elections and things fall into place.

The reds have victory assured it they play it wisely these weeks. If they ape the yellows and use a paramilitary wing and tactics to overthrow a government, then … well … you’ll seriously have to start thinking the unthinkable: a foreign intervention:

Photo from AP Photo

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Comments

32 Responses to “Redder Than The Devil: Foreign Intervention Please”

Andy on December 29th, 2008 10.20 am

One thing is not really accurate here. The elites are on both sides. Or what else are Thaksin & Cronies & Co.?

I have to admit my heart doesn’t go for reds as this Thaksin is the most unlawful and most corrupt leader Thailand ever had.

It’s a matter of supporting the cleaner side. Yes not all is black or white, but some are more white than others.

Sure there were other corrupt leaders before him. How can you support one with daily lies? Abhisit has real good intentions for Thailand and has a clean record. While Thaksin has only intentions for his pockets – now even more with his money frozen and the economic crash shrinking his fortune.

Someone has to stop those red liars who cheat and lie to those mostly provincial supporters. It’s not about saving them, it’s about saving Thaksin, to get him back to power to get more greedy and shady deals with neighboring countries, via government means (changing laws for his pockets).

He’s the one who belongs foremost behind bars asap.
David Brown on December 29th, 2008 2.45 pm

Andy

Where did you get the idea that “Thaksin is the most unlawful and most corrupt leader Thailand ever had”?

Who told you? Or do you feel you have specific evidence for your assertion?

Are you aware that after massive efforts chasing many allegations that only one case against Thaksin has come to the courts?

The massive efforts included changing the judges and the laws to specifically target Thaksin.

Why have no other cases progressed to prosecution? Lack of evidence?

Are you also aware that none else has been targetted by the legal authorities during this Thaksin witchhunt?

Thaksin has been convicted of an offence that is trivial compared to the other allegations and even with this conviction some people that blog on the Bangkok Post site have detail-analyzed the judgement and show that the judgement was twisted … so doubt remains!

So, why do you believe Thaksin was/is corrupt?
stefan on December 29th, 2008 4.24 pm

Foreign intervention? I dont believe any Thai would allow foreign intervention, even if it was the only recourse. Although, interestingly, by submitting foreigners to a near hostage scenario resulted in a successful political move at the airports.

BKKDan, do you know what the above photograph with placard “UN – help us” refers to?
BangkokDan on December 29th, 2008 5.03 pm

stefan, follow the photo’s link. It’s been taken at Sunday’s UDD rally, the day before the latest of many parliament sieges …

BangkokDan
Andy on December 29th, 2008 5.11 pm

Hi David

I should have said “Thaksin is the most unlawful and most corrupt leader Thailand ever had have ever learned about,” which sounds silly I know.

Of course on both sides not everything is ok and/or quite clear and easy to describe/understand sometimes.

How long are you here David (or since when are you into Thai politics) if I may ask?

Some points you mention are maybe valid, too. It’s all a bit too complicated and messed-up.

Certain is that most court cases are suspended until he comes back, to give him a fair trial in persona.

The first conviction was peanuts and low key, I agree, but I guess they just had to go ahead, as if people who come into power unlawfully by vote buying etc. and who paid off courts himself before … Sometimes you have to apply some other means if you want to have a better political solution.

Anyhow, this first case as I understand was an unlawful act and therefore should be punished, no?

I prefer not to waste my time too much with Thaksin anymore.

I’m sure you’re aware that his lawyers were sitting six months in jail for trying to bribe the courts regarding this very first case. Or again not guilty?

Thaksin is and will remain a big headache for this country until he quits politics for good. Maybe that will be the case when he gets his frozen money back?

As Thaksin once said:

“Democracy is not my goal.”

I have to agree, the recent acts of the PAD helped him for now to even increase his popularity (which doesn’t make any sense in my opinion).

He’s a very clever soap opera populist politician.

The U.K. by the way also has most likely frozen some of his assets. Guess that also tells us that not all is wrong with the courts over here.

Search this great blog for more Thaksin stories … and yes, another great quote:

“We just went to Singapore for shopping.” ;o)

I guess BangkokDan is still a reliable “spindoctor” … despite being currently a bit too pessimistic about the PAD and Abhisit’s real intentions, which I find to be much more honest and beneficial for Thailand than Thaksin’s.

Guess it also depends on where we all get our information from.
bosunj on December 29th, 2008 8.02 pm

Next Dan’s going to suggest that the Americans should be the “proper” “authority” to intervene. Let’s see, last time America “intervened” in SE Asia three million Vietnamese and 58,000 Americans lives were wasted.

Great idea Dan, destroy a country and a culture to impose your exceptionalist “democracy” on people who clearly do not want democracy as defined by America or the west.

Christ on a f@#&ing crutch. Get over it! AND yourself!
BangkokDan on December 29th, 2008 8.07 pm

Was it me suggesting anything bosunj?!

Look at the guy in the image.

BangkokDan
bosunj on December 29th, 2008 8.15 pm

Did the guy in the photo ask for “intervention”??

Intervention is a code word for war Dan.

Can’t you just live here and enjoy how much better it is than America rather than try to impose your need for order?

Freaking please! You wanna have a connipition about a corrupt government and lack of democracy try looking at America!
BangkokDan on December 29th, 2008 8.38 pm

Try to keep it all civilized bosunj, I hate to moderate comments. Otherwise please maintain your own online playground for insults. And maybe you mix up invasion with intervention. Sometimes absolutely Bangkok shall give you a thought-provoking impulse. Takin’ it literally? Think grander. You sound like my wife.

Thailand could use some friendly advice and you should read Not The Nation more often.

Lest we forget, as you mention America, after a most bitterly fought election campaign they again quickly came to terms with the result. And not once in U.S. history did the military openly interfere in politics with a coup. And you want to tell me that money plays a more honest, decent role in U.S. politics?

BangkokDan
Soi Cowboy on December 29th, 2008 9.52 pm

I would say Abhisit has a more serious image problem than the red shirts. Before he became PM, Thaksin was a successful businessman while Abhisit has nothing to boast about. The Democrats like to boast Abhisit as being clean and untarnished but so what. Samak’s description of Mark as an “unripe mango” was correct and Mark is just a photocopy of his mentor Chuan who is a good talker but has done nothing worthwhile as PM. Worse, now Abhisit has a new image of being a nominee or proxy of the military and PAD. Mark and his government may stay long under Anupong’s protection but the country’s poor will suffer and make them clamor more for Mr. T’s return.
bosunj on December 29th, 2008 10.41 pm

No Dan, I don’t mix the two up. Intervention is a code word for war. Invasion comes after and as a direct result of intervention!!

Dan, for the most part I admire what you do.

I can imagine that the farang writer/blogger community is rather insular as all that fit that category seem to be of the same crazed opinion that Western standards of ORDER must be IMPOSED for you to be sated.

Kindly refrain from stoking the ire of people who have no business interfering with Thais’ internal affairs.

Many farang who live here do so because we like things here just fine thanks!

As for those farang who are so incensed by the behavior of Thai people I suggest you go to the airport, get on a plane and go back to wherever you came from! Dan asked me to be civil so I refrained from what I really wanted to say.

As for the military in America and interference you might want to look into General Smedley Butler USMC and the elites/military cabal that conspired to overthrow Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Only the patriotism and character of the general prevented it. Read his testimony before congress!

No, money does not play a more honest role in America. That is my point exactly!

And, Dan, if you think that Americans have healed after the election you aren’t hearing the things I am from boots on the ground there. Wait for CHANGE to be proven to be anything but and see how quickly it gets ugly. Remember, Americans have just moved from the elections into the final doubling down consumerist orgy called xmas. Wait a few months until three million or more American jobs have evaporated. Indeed.
Thai TV on December 30th, 2008 12.00 am

bosunj don’t be a moron would you!
whoopla on December 30th, 2008 1.12 am

The opinionated one is back! It must be worse than having Thaksin back … his visa revoked … thrown off the chat rooms …
Joop on December 30th, 2008 4.25 am

As a very interested reader of this blog, though not living in Thailand, but with a big affinity with this beautiful country, I am rather interested in the way the Thai politics are “implemented” in daily life. Like an “Alice in wonderland feeling,” I get from it.

May I join the ‘discussion’ as I have many “unsolved questions,” like e.g.: Why there is no socialistic (labor) party in Thailand? They could take the “populist part” of the politics.

Anyhow, ok to join here, as a part time farang (been there four times)? Or only “knowledgable people” accepted here?

Oh, yes, I own three yellow tees, which I bought recently in Siam, do I have to take them with me when I come back or change them for red ones?

Regards, Joop, Rotterdam, Netherlands
itsahobby on December 30th, 2008 6.16 am

I think Dan is partly right, but direct foreign intervention is out of the question and would prove as disasterous as everywhere else.

Instead, it will have to be intervention from above, as the politicians will have proven that they cannot do the job and a white knight will be needed to do it for them (again).
FrogBlogger on December 30th, 2008 12.17 pm

Understand the sentiment, but saying the aims of reds and yellows are the same is a bit simplistic. Ok there’s an element of both seeking power, but I still see PAD as stooges for powerful interest groups that are trying to reverse the transition towards a democratic system of sorts, while the reds – at least those I’ve talked to at rallies in the north – are hardly Thaksinist parrots these days. They can see what’s going on behind the scenes and reckon the aim is to remove any significant voting powers from the “underclasses.” We all know that for a rich and powerful elite to stay rich and powerful they need a poor, disenfranchised, cheap pool of labor. Educating and empowering the likes of Isaan is NOT in their interests.

As for foreign intervention it won’t happen, we’re not even close to the kind of situation of civil strife that might justify it at some point, and the U.N. isn’t even capable of sorting out a case that’s been crying out for intervention for years – Zimbabwe.
BangkokDan on December 30th, 2008 12.40 pm

As much as I try FrogBlogger, can’t make out substantial differences between a yellow and a red light at the end of the tunnel.

Yellow goes more populist, reds turn more sophisticated, while the yellows gave former reds a big say …

Agreed though that any form of intervention – even as a friendly advice from within Asean – would be considered as neo-hegemony and is beyond all question.

But then again, Abhisit having to mimic his predecessor by fleeing protesters as his first official duty, well, kind of augurs not too positively, doesn’t it.

BangkokDan
thy on December 30th, 2008 2.48 pm

It sounds like bosunj is benefitting from Thailand’s corruption in one way or another. ~~Probably a kiddy-fiddler.~~

(Moderated comment. Please no such language in here; as said, I hate moderating. BKKDan)
FrogBlogger on December 30th, 2008 3.03 pm

Don’t think the yellows are much more keen on Abhisit than on the Thaksinists – but in the final analysis a coup was too much for the powers-that-be, dissolution of parliament could easily have led to UDD parties having even larger influence in parliament in fresh elections, so what options were left?

Certain “interest groups” shot themselves in the wallet with the airport business, and I just wonder if the Abhisit move was a kind of reluctant compromise on their real objectives. Or maybe it was a calculated move in a longer game. PAD backtracked completely and overnight on their (i.e. the same influential lobbies behind the scenes) stated goals. It will be interesting to see how the army handles the same sort of provocation from redshirts as from PAD – there were quotes yesterday from army spokesmen suggesting that a firmer approach will be used. My prediction is that in time, once this government collapses, it’ll be blamed on the reds … PAD will be back, and the unelected majority of decision-makers the powers-that-be have wanted all along will finally be introduced in some form or other.
bosunj on December 30th, 2008 3.07 pm

@thy

It took a little longer than I expected for ~~some wanker~~ to suggest what you have. More than likely you are projecting your own habits on me. Sad. So sad. Indeed.

Apparently you have no cogent point to counter with so you resort to ad hominum attacks.

Dan, as for civility where does thy’s comment fit in your mind? Does it pass muster with your idea of civility?

(Moderated. Same applies to you. If you “expected” a reply like this, please refrain from initiating such a debate in the first place. BKKDan)
thy on December 30th, 2008 3.41 pm

Sorry, i just took the time to type what everyone else was thinking. As Dan says, what did you expect anyway? Your comments above are aggressive in tone and arrogant in nature, by simply falling back on the futile argument of “if you don’t like it here, leave.”

I, on the other hand, ask a different question. Yes, there are good things in Thailand, but there are also bad, so why shouldn’t we try to help make the country an even better place? Does that mean blindly copying the systems we have in our home countries? Of course not, it just means thinking, promoting and discussing these subjects in the sensible way that they deserve.
FrogBlogger on December 30th, 2008 4.27 pm

thy:

“Sorry, i just took the time to type what everyone else was thinking”

Nope, you don’t speak for me ref bosunj, even if I disagree with practically everything he writes.

No, intervention doesn’t equate with invasion. bosunj’s straw man misrespresentation of Dan’s partly tongue in cheek piece was plain silly.

“Stoking ire”?

“Imposing Western standards of control”?

“Incensed by the behavior of Thai people”?

He must be reading a different blog to me.

Seems pretty obvious what Dan is on about, and it’s a deeper understanding than the superficial one bosunj’s alluding to.
bosunj on December 30th, 2008 5.08 pm

@thy:

So, inferring awful things about me, or anyone else, is sensible? That you were incensed that I suggested anyone leave if you don’t like it is futile is reason enough to slander someone?

Reasonable? Sensible?

Again, it is not our (farang) place to suggest or “it just means thinking, promoting and discussing these subjects” to Thais.

Respect and “face” are highly valued in Thailand. It is disrespectful to Thais to suggest the country they love is faulty. Imagine how you and/or your countrymen might feel if a foreigner came to your country and started slagging it even if you were to intellectually agree with their assessment!

You lose face by being rude enough to point out what you perceive to be their errors and thereby your ideas lose whatever marginal value they may have held.

No apologies for what you believe to be aggressive and arrogant attitudes about Westerners who come here and insist that Thailand be sucked into the cesspool the West has become.

Often many farang who come to Thailand to live are troubled by the lack of what they percieve to be ORDER here. Many have observed that most farang tend to hit a two to two and a half year wall they must get over or around to be able to remain here.

Remaining here and enjoying living here requires ACCEPTANCE that things are different and are done very differently here, that there is a different standard for everything here. Either you accept it and learn strategies to deal with it or you remain frustrated and angry and eventually leave.

I have observed many who hit the two year wall. I have also observed many who arrive here and immediately love it enough that the wall never appears. I have also observed many who have lived here for five or ten years that hit the wall sooner than two years and never learned how to go over or around it that are miserable but won’t go home.

Most farang who come here to live leave. In their wake they leave broken dreams, hearts, promises and bankrupt Western ideas no one wanted to hear.
FrogBlogger on December 30th, 2008 5.49 pm

bosunj – that’s got to be one of the most mixed-up collections of half-truths, partial insights, truisms, logical fallacies, sweeping generalizations and arrogant platitudes I’ve come across on the topic of Thailand.
bosunj on December 30th, 2008 5.57 pm

@FrogBlogger:

I took the time earlier to go to your website. Nice job.

Thank you for your observations regards my posts herein.

Chok dee
David Brown on December 30th, 2008 5.59 pm

Andy …

It doesn’t pay to believe anything you read in The Nation or worse anything from the PAD, etc. … unless you can independently verify it.

The U.K. asset freeze was a mistake by an Arabian business news writer. See this reference for his apology – the author’s reply is as a comment at the end:

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/12/did-uk-seize-thaksins-assets.html

Of course The Nation and all the PAD people have leapt onto the story like rabid hyaenas … Presumably they don’t want to discover it’s wrong …
Andy on December 31st, 2008 1.14 am

Apparently one point for you.

Got your point, but be assured I read my way through the papers (not only The Nation or TOC).

BangkokPundit, to my point of view, is in the same way suspiciously one-sided as The Nation (was?). He hardly writes anything bad about the red side. No?

However maybe you can admit that The Nation, since the PAD took over the government building & airports, has become also very critical of the PAD too.

They’re not that one-sided anymore.

I find The Nation actually quite accurate if I discuss/compare with my Thai Friends and compare with local media. They’re as well not that extremely one-sided.

Also the Bangkok Post was never a big fan of Thaksin since his law amendments and real priorities came to light.

So in your point of view, The Nation and Bangkok Post and other media have to be avoided and Thaksin is actually our real hero of democracy and not corrupt at all?

What is your possible best political solution for Thailand and Thaksin then?

Anyhow I reckon we have to give Abhisit a chance.

Or are we just moving in circles?
FrogBlogger on December 31st, 2008 12.06 pm

Don’t know about Dan, but the suggestion that Thaksin is somehow a hero of democracy is rarely heard these days. On the contrary, most of the red movement leaders I spoke to in the north happily agreed that there was corruption, but were eager to point out that he certainly didn’t hold the monopoly … there were and are plenty of examples of extensive and systematic corruption on the other side of the political fence that the courts somehow miss – preferring to concentrate on politicians earning a few irrelevant baht from a dubious cookery talent, etc. The UDD is far more interested in a free and fair election, with as many international observers as it takes to ensure that manipulations are kept to a minimum, and at worst cancel each other out.

So the best solution? Free and fair, properly observed elections. The reds say that Abhisit is in office as a result of political trickery, and as a result until elections are held the feeling that the popular voice has been stifled just isn’t going to go away.
BangkokDan on December 31st, 2008 1.03 pm

I maintain FrogBlogger that the lesser of two evils is still the better option for Thailand. Thaksin got his lessons and is still a maker, a man of action Abhisit is not.

Personally I’d prefer Abhisit, but unfortunately he represents the greater of the two evils since we all know what happened these past weeks and months. Abhisit is no longer his own man.

That sounds dramatic, I know, but only his actions will prove us doubters wrong. And how I wish he proves us wrong!

BangkokDan
David Brown on December 31st, 2008 1.15 pm

Hi Andy …

I have been “involved,” mostly from a distance, in Thai politics for 38 years, with background reading on history to back it up.

I dont think you should “avoid” the papers, in fact I read them all the time, it’s just retain a heatlthy scepticism about any claimed facts, especially if repeated without any substantiation or against the evidence of our eyes … e.g. PAD protests are unarmed and peaceful … good phrase, but what does it mean?

Anyway, my aim in Thailand is to see a fully voted democratic governments in power … democratically elected governments are accountable to the people, nominated MPs are only accountable to the elite or whatever group puts them in power.

As soon as a group feels it’s in charge by nominating the MPs and government then they corrupt the system.

When MPs and governments are elected then the people are in charge.

Simple really … and to date Thaksin’s governments are the only ones that have been fully elected, and returned to the people to renew their mandate … even if Thaksin was still here he would still be at risk every time there is an election … and that’s how it should be … perform or you are out.

Now, who is Abhisit accountable to? Put into power by the military and the rich families … I suppose as long as he keeps them happy he will be in power?

Will this be good for the mass of the Thai people?

Are they likely to feel empowered to better their lives?

Is Abhisit likely to do things that will make poor people feel they are not dominated by the rich?

Thailand needs democracy and democratically elected governments.

And, by the way, Thaksin’s crime was to upset the established military and rich families … and, as far as I can see all these mythical court cases against him are built on greed and envy, not fault.

And the land case, no, we think the courts bent the law, he was and is innocent of the charge! And his wife paid over the market price for the land … have you seen the statement by a commercial land buyer who says he chose not to bid for the land because the price was too high … so, who benefitted?

Anyway, I advise keep reading and thinking and where possible reviewing all the information you can get hold of …
Global Voices Online » Thailand: Revenge of the reds on December 31st, 2008 2.32 pm

[...] is disappointed that the red protesters are copying the tactics of the yellows: “The red shirts, attempting to [...]
hobby on December 31st, 2008 3.03 pm

Reading won’t help if you have a closed mind.

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